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Author Topic: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?  (Read 10497 times)

rayn1984

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2008, 03:59:17 am »
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about sa blueprint, pag sa negosyo natalo mo at nabili mo yung kalaban mo natural pagaaralan mo rin yung mga pambato nila at kung ano yung mga key item nila. yung sa last mo na sinabi?

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Hindi nila kinopya ang rocketry ng german, even though nag gather sila nginfos sa mga captured german scientist and researchers (lalong lalo na ang US at USSR)

Una nga ang mga Allies naimbento ang missile they have the technology but primitive nga lang hindi katulad ng SRBM ng aleman na long range kumpara sa mga russian counterpart nila

like the telephone 2 ang nakaimbento sa telephono pero nauna si graham bell sa pag submit so na acknowledge si bell kaysa dun nsa kalaban niya

even though may technology ang USA at Britain at USSR ang mga Aleman ang unang naka perfect nito.

rs-82 - nakakabit ito sa sa fighter plane kaso lang unguided nyahaha unlike sa sa Aleman nagawan na nila guided missile using radio frequency kaso dahil sa radar nadidisrupt ang frequency nito

RS-132 - 500 meters ang haba ang diperensiya nito poor accuracy kaya ginawa nila sa Katyusha multiple rocket launchers or tawag ng mga RUSSO stalin's rod unlike sa v-2 at v-1 rocket ng aleman na mas advance ang kanila dahil long range ito

They have the same technology ang problem mas advance ang Aleman nagmukhang primitive ang sa Russo.

may documentaries nga na sinabi ni Stalin na gayahin ang german rocket technology pero dapat lahat ng materyales e gawang russia

at kinuha din ang mga German Scientist para maging researcher ng US.

kung meron kang sariling technology bakit kukunin mo ang blueprint at scientist to modify your current technology. It means mas advance ang german rockerty kaysa sa mga kalaban nila.

lahat ng bagay sa ayaw at gusto mo may makakaisip sa invention mo pero kung sino ang unang naka master sa kanya ang credit.

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paano naging proof yun na superior ang germans?

Germany a small country pinag tulungan siya ng almost lahat ng malalaking nation sa buong mundo. this is the proof na advance ang germany

1. Albert Einstien was a geman citizen na naka imbento ng atomic bomb pero Hudyo siya umalis sa germany

mabait ang dyos paano kung na combine ni hitler ang v-2 tech niya at atomic bomb wala nang makakatalo sa kanya buti na lang hudyo si Albert

2. Enrico Fermi an Italian (allies of germany)- leader of Manhattan Project asawa niya hudyo kaya napa alis sila sa Italy

3. Carpet bombing ang nakaisip nito ay Italian (allies of Germany) pero na disregard siya

4. Magnetic powered train nakaisip nito ay germany late na invent ginagamit ito ngayon ng china at 4x times faster sa bullet train

natalo lang ang mga Aleman sa Battle of the Kursk dahil sa defense position ng mga tangke ng mga russian nakalitaw lang ang barrel at ang ulo nito kahit na superior ka e ma frustrate ka dahil hindi mo matatamaan ang tangke ng kalaban.

bro, hindi applicable lagi yung "next one will be better" pero sa point na ito un ung punto dun. nakita ng mga germans ang potential ng missile batay sa mga test ng british at french at higit sa lahat sa mga research ni Konstantin Eduardovich Tsiolkovskii. kahit mga rockets ng russians. ano lang ba ang dinagdag nila?hindi ba yung pagiging remote control lang ang dinagdag nila kaya accurate. at gaya ng sinabi ko mas latest ang v1 at v2 natural lahat ng kamalian noong nasaksihan nila naayos na nila.

about sa sinabi mo na "Germany a small country pinag tulungan siya ng almost lahat ng malalaking nation sa buong mundo. this is the proof na advance ang germany" bakit ung
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paano naging proof yun na superior ang germans?
lang ang sinagot mo? diba ang tanong ko ay

one more thing about sa blue print thing panahon pa lang ni Konstantin Eduardovich Tsiolkovskii (isang sayantipikong russo) me mga concept model at test subjects na ang mga russians para sa rocketry nila at hindi naman kinopya. sila nga nauna sa gumawa ng unang air-to-surface/air-to-air missile e, ung rs-82(unguided nga lang) ng russians e di nabangit? hindi pa na coconceptualized ang v1 at v2 nag tetest fire na sila nito, katunayan lang na meron na silang sariling path sa technology nabanget and similar thing to what i mentioned before, hindi man lang nabangit sa wikipedia.com hehe.


tsaka sa russia naganap ang pinaka malaking gyera ng mga tanke... proof that Germans are superior...
tanong ko lang? ano naman kung sa russia naganap ang pinakamalaking gera ng tangke? paano naging proof yun na superior ang germans? pki eksplika kung ano ung koneksyon  ::moreinfo  ::moreinfo

ok sasagutin ko un pinagtutulungan, kumpara mo na lang ang USSR gaano karami  ang mga welltrained na tao ng USSR sa dami ng welltrained na sundalo ng germans?yung sa mga tangke nga nila mismong karamihan sa tank commanders ng USSR nagkakaproblema sa leadership e dahil walang proper training, besides sa USSR pagbinigyan ka ng baril sundalo ka na pagumayaw ka papatayin ka.

hindi ba issue ng supperior sa tangke ang usapan. ok sasagutin ko naman yang sinabi mo bro about sa superiority ng germans, alam mo ba talaga kung ano ang naging role ng USSR sa WW2? at alam mo ba kung gaano kalaki ang role ng USSR kaya nagkaroon ng VE-day? USSR ang may pinakamalaking casualties noong ww2 hindi dahil mas superior ang germans hindi rin dahil sa mga namention mo sa itaas dahil walang kinalaman yan bro(not to mention hindi counted si einstein, technically hindi siya counted para sa NAZI and germany bro bat mo dinamay ang mga maicrecredit sa ka ally nya at about sa maglev walang kinalaman yun sa world war 2 bro ni hindi nman napakinabangan ito noong world war 2 besides isang briton na nagngangalang Eric Laithwaite ang talagang unang succesfull researcher ng technology nito although si german na si Alfred Zehden ang pasimuno, pero pero pero asa US din siya wala sa germany(magnetic powered train or magnetic levitation train ba?"). one more thing alam mo ba kung ano ang naging role ng USSR sa VE-day? pinakamalaking and role USSR kaya snagkaroon ng VE-day yung mga NAZI nga nagpupuntahan ng west at dun sila sumusuko e dahil ayaw nila mapunta sa USSR sa berlin nga aside sa sumuko sila sa west nghingi pa sila ng tulong sa british army against sa USSR troops. kung imemention mo yung dami ng namatay na russians, dapat imention mo rin kung gaano ang pinapatay na Stalin(some historians said probably 3 times to 6 times more than to those who were killed by germans), geographic situation ng USSR, problema ng USSR sa loob ng bansa, lack of trained personnel at higit sa lahat yung lack of supply dahil mismong US nag papadala ng supply sa USSR. besides majority ng german casualties at lost nasa Russian soil bro, alam mo ibig sabihin nun? lahat nga ng key battle ng pagpapabagsak sa NAZI e ngyari sa russian soil e. and some historians (most of them are from US and europe not from russia) even insist na kung nireserve ng west ang pwersa nila at hindi lumusob, kayang kaya talunin ng USSR alone ang germans at italy basta me support lang by means of supply and aid. like what i mentioned ang USSR ang may pinakamalaking role sa VE-day dahil kung hindi nilusob ng NAZI ang USSR hindi hihina ang NAZI, so supperior pa rin ba ang germans?marami lang silang well trained men at mas terible ang internal problem ng USSR. and again, sa mga binangit mwag mo icount yung mga dapat icredit sa italy or sa kahit anong ka allyansa ng germans dahil germans lang ang pinaguusapan, hindi lang pagka ahead sa technology ang kinokonsider at higit sa lahat check mo ung situations

one more thing about sa britsih german issue ung sa nearly defeated, nagfocust si Hitler sa east dahil hindi niya makuhakuha ang British kahit mismo sa airspace nila, kahit nga sa russian airspace e, hindi niya naobtain.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 04:36:53 am by rayn1984 »

rayn1984

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2008, 04:14:44 am »
ang tiger kase pang urban fighting unlike sa mga counterpart niyang tangke na open field fighting

may Naivent sila ito ang Panther tank pangontra sa IS-2 at T-34 ang problem minadali ang production nito kaya nag fail at hindi na improve ng maayos dahil nagkukulang na ang ALeman ng resources at konti lang ang nagawa halos 5-6000 tanks lang kumpara sa sherman na 40,000 pero kayang pasabugin ang sherman halos 2,000 meters ang layo

In 1996 t-34  was still in service with twenty-seven countries.

dahil  mahal ang research and development ng tangke it is better na bumili ka ng out dated na tangke

parang Pinas e panahon pa ng ww2 or vietnam war ang mga gamit natin


alam mo ba na marami ng mas superior na heavy tanks ang USSR wala pang 1940 kesa sa mga nainvent ng germans na pangontra sa t-34? marami na silang heavy tanks na kayang pampuksa sa mga german tanks noon. di mo ba napansin laging sherman tanks lang ang sinasabing talo sa mga german tanks kahit nga dual turrent na tangke na heavy tank(t100)meron na sila. meron pa nga 5 turret e(t35). meron din silang T-34-85 nakayang magpenetrate sa panthers at tigers sa harapan sa decent range.

talagang hindi lang nila maabot yung pagiging superior ng germans pag dating sa pag train ng mga forces nila noong world war 2 pero noong nag run na ang tide takot na takot ang mga germans sa USSR ung iba nga humihingi pa ng tulong sa ibang allies powers gaya ng britain at US e wag lang maging POW ng USSR

hindi lang dahil mahal ang research at development ng tangke kaya hangang ngayon meron nito, effectiveness sa gera ang dahilan basta meron lang proper strategy pag t34 againts modern tanks ang paguusapan.(competing ww2 tanks upto 1990s tanks)

i guest matagal ng nasagot ang  tanong sa topic na ito. "T-34"
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 05:04:37 am by rayn1984 »

ironhot

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2008, 05:44:07 am »


tsaka sa russia naganap ang pinaka malaking gyera ng mga tanke... proof that Germans are superior...
tanong ko lang? ano naman kung sa russia naganap ang pinakamalaking gera ng tangke? paano naging proof yun na superior ang germans? pki eksplika kung ano ung koneksyon  ::moreinfo  ::moreinfo




dahil ang ratio d2, as told by historians is 2 is to 1...

2 for russians and one tank for germans....
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ironhot

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2008, 05:53:10 am »


one more thing about sa britsih german issue ung sa nearly defeated, nagfocust si Hitler sa east dahil hindi niya makuhakuha ang British kahit mismo sa airspace nila, kahit nga sa russian airspace e, hindi niya naobtain.


gaya nga ng sabi ko, naisalba sila nung araw na kung saan, na imbento nila ung radar...

britain was in ruins, dahil sa BLITZKRIEG... mag susurrender na nga sana sila....
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tonikoro[deactivated]

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2008, 07:18:37 am »


one more thing about sa britsih german issue ung sa nearly defeated, nagfocust si Hitler sa east dahil hindi niya makuhakuha ang British kahit mismo sa airspace nila, kahit nga sa russian airspace e, hindi niya naobtain.


gaya nga ng sabi ko, naisalba sila nung araw na kung saan, na imbento nila ung radar...

britain was in ruins, dahil sa BLITZKRIEG... mag susurrender na nga sana sila....


source pls about the surrender(almost) of the british during ww2.


rayn1984

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2008, 07:58:35 am »


one more thing about sa britsih german issue ung sa nearly defeated, nagfocust si Hitler sa east dahil hindi niya makuhakuha ang British kahit mismo sa airspace nila, kahit nga sa russian airspace e, hindi niya naobtain.


gaya nga ng sabi ko, naisalba sila nung araw na kung saan, na imbento nila ung radar...

britain was in ruins, dahil sa BLITZKRIEG... mag susurrender na nga sana sila....


source pls about the surrender(almost) of the british during ww2.



oo nga naman bro source please kahit history teacher mo noong gradeschool ang tanongin mo ang sasabihin nun hindi susuko ang bristish, kaya nga bumaling ung attention ni hitler(na naging pagkakamali niya) sa east e dahil di niya makuhakuha ang britain. at isa pa ilang beses nagpulong pulong ang mga allies leader kasama dito lagi si winston churchill para sa plano na gagawin nila pangontra sa mga axis forces. pati sa mga opensibang plano andun siya. ultimong sa plano campaign na nag lead sa VE-day andun ang prime minister ng UK. so pano mo nasabi na magsusurender na nga sila?ruins nga ang uk ubos nman ung pwersa ng mga germans na pumasok. bro, i hate to ask this but forgive me about this query i have for you. do you have any source to proove whatever you mentioned, or you just mentioned it because that's what you think?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 08:03:30 am by rayn1984 »

rayn1984

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2008, 08:46:24 am »


tsaka sa russia naganap ang pinaka malaking gyera ng mga tanke... proof that Germans are superior...
tanong ko lang? ano naman kung sa russia naganap ang pinakamalaking gera ng tangke? paano naging proof yun na superior ang germans? pki eksplika kung ano ung koneksyon  ::moreinfo  ::moreinfo




dahil ang ratio d2, as told by historians is 2 is to 1...

2 for russians and one tank for germans....

again bro info please

alam mo ba yung mga Kliment Voroshilov tank?isa lang ng kv1 entire german tank units ung dinudurog nya nung mga time na wala pa ang tiger, nagiisang KV tank lang yun huh tanging 88flanks na supposed to be anti air gun nila ang nagkakadecent shots sa mga KV pero kelangan 50 meters ang lapit or less than or iconcentrate ang mga fire ng mga tangke nila pero kelangan less than 100 meters or less than 50 meters ang lapit. kabaliktaran sa sitwasyon ng sherman sa mga panzers. alam mo rin ba na meduim tank lang ang t34 at ang panther ay heavy tank? alam mo rin ba na pantapat lang ang panther sa t-34, pero hindi pa rin masasabing dominante ito laban sa t-34.alam mo rin ba na kaya nagkaroon ng tiger para kontrahin ang KV tanks. at pumalya na naman nag karoon naman ng tiger 2 at naging effective lang sa west dahil walang tangke ang america at british na pang tatapat d2 kahit ang pershing ng kano. pero hindi masyadong  matindi ang effectivity niya againts sa mga sinaunang KV-1 tanks. noong narealized ng mga russians ito nagkaroon sila ng mga upgrades sa mga KVs nila at mas maraming  model such as ibatibang uri ng kv-1,kv-2,kv-85,smk,blahblahblah ang ginawa.lalo na nung pumasok na ang mga IS-tanks.sayang nga di nakapagplay ang IS-3 nung nilulusob na ng redarmy ang europe

pero gaya ng sinabi ko last time ,, at uulitulitin ko to , ung training sa mga germans ay mas matindi kaysa sa mga kulang sa training na USSR at kadalasan wala pa talagang matinong training. meron ako dati napanood na isang matandang ukranian na dating nagtratrabaho sa post office na under sa USSR, naigising na lang daw siya na ginugulpi siya at pilit na pinpasakay sa tangke at pag di niya inoperate kawawa ang pamilya niya. pero kung sa tangke lang ang paguusapan mas superior ang mga socialista. ung mga kv tanks at kahit ang t34 natangap lang sa front line after 3mos ng offensiva ng germany ,, ung ibang crew ng mga tangke instinct lang ang ginagamit ni walang training at believe it or not ung iba first time lang nakasakay ng tangke at walang kaalamalam sa tangke sa manual lang nagrerely habang nakikipaggera. pero nagawa pa rin nila talunin ang mga NAZIs, samantalang ung mga well trained na tao talaga ng USSR nakatanga lang sa likod nanonood sa mga tao nila habang nakikipagdigma at nakahanda ang mga armamento nila ,, hindi para tirahin ang kalaban kung hindi para patayin ang mga nagaatrasang red army.

i-mention na natin ang SU-152, alam mo ba na ito ang nabansagan beast killer or animal killer ito dahil kesyo tiger,tiger2,panther, or elefant pa e pinupulbos nya. alam mo ba na isa lang nito ay nakakapagpasabog ng 7 elefant na supposed to be unstopable tank. kilala mo si Major Sankovskiy? isa sa mga naawardan ng heron of the soviet uninon xa dahil 10 german tanks ang pinasabog nila(mostly tigers) ang pinasabog sa unang araw ng pagentra nila sa bakbkan gamit ang nabangit na tangke,sa loob lang ng isang araw un huh.siya rin ay isa sa mga naglalack ng decent training at mismong mga crew niya ung dalawa wala pa daw alam sa tangkeng iyon. welltrained personnel vs. personnel with no decent traing and most of them doesn't have trainingat all and illeterate sa mga tangke. sino ngaun ang superior sa tangke? inupgrade pa nila ang mga SU-152 at gnawang ISU-152. kung sa western allies siguro ang paguusapan mas superior ang mga germans, pero ibang usapan na pag dating sa east.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 12:31:14 pm by rayn1984 »

Idiot

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2008, 11:58:30 pm »
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sa pa dba SRBM ung pinaguusapan hindi diretsyahang tutok na missle or rocket? ung mga ginamit ng tga india meron straight path meron dn ung paliliparin sa ere tapos me mga patalim sa dulo ung iba ung iba nman ay pulbura na sumasabog pra pag naubos na ung pulbura babagsak sa lupa.


first missile ay gawa ng chinese hindi ang taga India

1. explosives tied onto an arrow. Fins were built onto arrow so that it can guide the missile in a straight line as it flies.

2. More than 100 missiles can fly and travel in long distance. As it reaches the ground, it explodes and destroy the enemy.

contradicting to what you said earlier post

Quote
ang missile na gnamit ng chinese ay pra manunog ng bahay, maging liwanag sa gabi, pandistruct sa kalaban, at maging go signal at gamiting sign nila. bihira nila gamitin ito bilang direct hit na pamapatay.


hindi lang nadevoloped  dahil sa mga Confucian's scholar at the time of Opium war very weak na ang China it is very primitive kung pag uusapan ang first missile. 

source http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBD6W2X2v7w&feature=related

pero kung pag uusapan ang first ballitic missile na may metal casing  yun ang sinasabi mong India

pero kung first modern ballistic missile dahil sa guiding system nito ito ang V2 at V1 ng germany na halos nakapattern lahat ng modern missile ngayon kahit na credit sa Germany ang first ballistic missile even though nauna ang Britain or USSR or whatsoever  hindi katulad sa RS-132 or rs-82 ng Russia na nag launch ng 100 missile walang natamaan

V2 weighs 2,000 LBs at nanggaling siya sa Stratosphre na hindi makikita kapag bumagsak - even though hindi siya nauna sa rocket pero para mapalipad mo ang isang 2000 lbs na bomba you need latest tech at yan ay na accomplish ng Germany kaysa sa Russia at success rate niya ay 50% compared sa Rs-132 na 1.1%

pakibigay po ng source duun sa redcoats vs redcoats


We view tanks one on one

alisin natin ang pilot
alisin natin 2:1
y base natin sa one versus one

obviously kung tank to tank hindi na kasali ang western allies ginagamit lang ang tangke nila for troop support especially kung na pinned down sila dahil mahihina lang ang mga armor nila like sherman, crusader etc wala silang panalo kung one on one sa Russian tanks or German tanks

kung one on one Germany vs. Russia

ang problema ng Aleman nagamit  ang mga tangke nila sa maling terrain sa open field advantage ang mga t-34 dahil sa mobility nito at madaling ma outflank ang tiger or heavy tanks pero kung close combat ang tiger talo ang t-34 or IS

kung stationary fire mananalo ang Germany dahil intended ang mga tangke nila for defense position yan ang reason kaya spacious ang mga tangke maraming ammo nila tulad ng tiger tanks, Ferdinand, jadgtiger, maus, lowe, tiger 2 nagawa sila for urban fighting

kahit na may panlaban sila ito ang Panther it is very late ng dumating

tsaka ang problem ng aleman ang daming nilang tangkeng ginawa at mga modification series wala silang focus unlike sa Russian mga MBT nila 3 or 2 like T-34, KV-1 at IS mga ISU at SU

Kung may SU ang russia may stug 111 ang aleman
 
Because of their silhouette bases, Sturmgeschütz III were easy to camouflage and constituted a target difficult to reach. In 1944, the majority of them were equipped with guns of 75 mm for high swiftness.


hindi ko nabalitaan mag susurender ang briton ang pagkakaalam ko defeat was inevitable dahil paubos na ang mga fighter plane nila at demoralized na sila dahil alam nila mag bebeach head na ang germany sa Britain with 100,000 troops at wala ng tutulong sa kanilang mga colonies dahil inaatake rin sila pero "GOD Bless the Queen" nasulsulan si Hitler ni Goering na y shift ang atake nila from dog fighting dahil halos 1,200 fighter planes ang na shot down sa Luffwaffe pero hindi rin nila alam na wala na rin pang depensa ang Britain  kaya nag shit sila to aerial bombardment and this was one of the greatest mistake of hitler dahil sa shifting na ito naka recover ang Britain

rayn1984

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2008, 04:41:03 am »
Quote
sa pa dba SRBM ung pinaguusapan hindi diretsyahang tutok na missle or rocket? ung mga ginamit ng tga india meron straight path meron dn ung paliliparin sa ere tapos me mga patalim sa dulo ung iba ung iba nman ay pulbura na sumasabog pra pag naubos na ung pulbura babagsak sa lupa.


first missile ay gawa ng chinese hindi ang taga India

1. explosives tied onto an arrow. Fins were built onto arrow so that it can guide the missile in a straight line as it flies.

2. More than 100 missiles can fly and travel in long distance. As it reaches the ground, it explodes and destroy the enemy.

contradicting to what you said earlier post

Quote
ang missile na gnamit ng chinese ay pra manunog ng bahay, maging liwanag sa gabi, pandistruct sa kalaban, at maging go signal at gamiting sign nila. bihira nila gamitin ito bilang direct hit na pamapatay.


hindi lang nadevoloped  dahil sa mga Confucian's scholar at the time of Opium war very weak na ang China it is very primitive kung pag uusapan ang first missile. 

source http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBD6W2X2v7w&feature=related

pero kung pag uusapan ang first ballitic missile na may metal casing  yun ang sinasabi mong India

pero kung first modern ballistic missile dahil sa guiding system nito ito ang V2 at V1 ng germany na halos nakapattern lahat ng modern missile ngayon kahit na credit sa Germany ang first ballistic missile even though nauna ang Britain or USSR or whatsoever  hindi katulad sa RS-132 or rs-82 ng Russia na nag launch ng 100 missile walang natamaan

V2 weighs 2,000 LBs at nanggaling siya sa Stratosphre na hindi makikita kapag bumagsak - even though hindi siya nauna sa rocket pero para mapalipad mo ang isang 2000 lbs na bomba you need latest tech at yan ay na accomplish ng Germany kaysa sa Russia at success rate niya ay 50% compared sa Rs-132 na 1.1%

pakibigay po ng source duun sa redcoats vs redcoats


We view tanks one on one

alisin natin ang pilot
alisin natin 2:1
y base natin sa one versus one

obviously kung tank to tank hindi na kasali ang western allies ginagamit lang ang tangke nila for troop support especially kung na pinned down sila dahil mahihina lang ang mga armor nila like sherman, crusader etc wala silang panalo kung one on one sa Russian tanks or German tanks

kung one on one Germany vs. Russia

ang problema ng Aleman nagamit  ang mga tangke nila sa maling terrain sa open field advantage ang mga t-34 dahil sa mobility nito at madaling ma outflank ang tiger or heavy tanks pero kung close combat ang tiger talo ang t-34 or IS

kung stationary fire mananalo ang Germany dahil intended ang mga tangke nila for defense position yan ang reason kaya spacious ang mga tangke maraming ammo nila tulad ng tiger tanks, Ferdinand, jadgtiger, maus, lowe, tiger 2 nagawa sila for urban fighting

kahit na may panlaban sila ito ang Panther it is very late ng dumating

tsaka ang problem ng aleman ang daming nilang tangkeng ginawa at mga modification series wala silang focus unlike sa Russian mga MBT nila 3 or 2 like T-34, KV-1 at IS mga ISU at SU

Kung may SU ang russia may stug 111 ang aleman
 
Because of their silhouette bases, Sturmgeschütz III were easy to camouflage and constituted a target difficult to reach. In 1944, the majority of them were equipped with guns of 75 mm for high swiftness.


hindi ko nabalitaan mag susurender ang briton ang pagkakaalam ko defeat was inevitable dahil paubos na ang mga fighter plane nila at demoralized na sila dahil alam nila mag bebeach head na ang germany sa Britain with 100,000 troops at wala ng tutulong sa kanilang mga colonies dahil inaatake rin sila pero "GOD Bless the Queen" nasulsulan si Hitler ni Goering na y shift ang atake nila from dog fighting dahil halos 1,200 fighter planes ang na shot down sa Luffwaffe pero hindi rin nila alam na wala na rin pang depensa ang Britain  kaya nag shit sila to aerial bombardment and this was one of the greatest mistake of hitler dahil sa shifting na ito naka recover ang Britain


hindi ko alam kung bata ang kausap ko hindi nag babasa or hindi iniintindi ang binabasa, at isa pa , better info please , ano ba ung silbi ng "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBD6W2X2v7w&feature=related" sobrang weak na ito at kahit ikaw masasagot mo ang tanong mo, about sa SRBM missile , rocket propeeled arrow iyon hindi SRBM(SRBM SRBM SRBM)short range ballistic missile isa pa, paki tignan nga sa diksyonaryo kung ano ang pinagkaiba ng rocket at missile saka please lang intindihin mo muna maigi yung mga binabasa mo isa pa kung tutuusin unang SRBM ang pinagtatalunan dito , inuwi na sa first missile.there's no doubt chineese ang nauna gumamit ng rocket as a weapon at possibleng una din sila sa missile(pero take note, marami hindi nakakaalam na meron ng steam rocket bago pa man naimbento ng chineese ang rocket,pero technically hindi xa rocket) pero gaya ng sinasabi ng history ang main purpose ng rocket ay sa fireworks wala ring trace or evidence na sa kanila ngaling ang missile kaya nga ang india ikiniclaim nila , even sa european historian un ang sinasabi nila.

meron decent early missile ang mga chinese. ngunit nag karoon lang sila noong time na meroon ng canoon ball ang mga europeans noon, at matagal na ung lkumipas na panahon simula noong nakagawa ng missile ang mga tiga india

meron ka bang proof na mas malakas ang china kesa sa british noong time na iyon kahit nga hapon takot sa mga banyagang puti noong time na iyon e, natalo ang tsina sa british hindi dahil nanghihina ang intsik , ito ay dahil sa mas dominante ang mga tga europa mula sa technolohiya, stratehiya, at kahit sa diplamatikong pamamaraan. isa pa hindi lang isang opium war ang ngyari. napakaobvious na nito bro di na kelangan pagtalunan pa.

first modern balistic ba ung sa v2?linawin mo. yup tama ka doon di kita kokontrahin dun, pero gaya nung namention ko sa mga early post ko, modern ballistic missle yah sila una pero hindi germans ang nauna sa SRBM kahit sa missile na ballistic

100 lang ba kamo?at wala ba kamo natamaan?huh?first of all di pa naiinvent ang v-2 ng germans ginaamit na ng mga russians ang katyusha rocket launcher na effective laban sa mga tao(not intended or armored vehicles).  pagsinabing effective ibig sabihin me tinatamaan, hangang sa gera mga ng lebanon ginamit nila iyon e. i guest effective nga siya.

tama ka nga sa v2 nakapattern lahat. matanong ko lang sau kung san naka pattern ang v2? hindi ba me mga test na ang bristish at france na parehas din ng arrangement?ang pinagkaiba lang e me warhead ang v2 samantalang ang nasa bitish at france(just an ordirany missile test subjects not ballistic missles) ang fuel ng missile nila ang explosive nila

ano bang one on one ang pinagsasabi mo, hindi ko ba na state sa post ko before?kaya nga nakakapatay ang germans kasi kinokoncentrate nila ung mga fireweapon ng tangke nila sa mga tangke ng USSR. so nagiisa lang doon ung tangke ng USSR. plus bigay natin example to huh , isang KV isang , isa lang huh hindi dalawa , talo o apat , ang dinudurog nun entire tank units (noong wala pa ang tiger) yung mga SU-152 ano ang kiling ratio noon sa tiger , doseng tiger kaya ubusin nun.

poblema ba kamo ng tangke ng aleman?mobility?madali ma outflank? bro ung superior tank ang pinaguusapan dito ibig sabihin ungkakayahan ang unang pinaguusapan bro. intended ba ang mga tangke nila for defensive position? wow kaya pala durogdurog mga tangke nila nung lumulusob na ang USSR. pagmalapitan ba kamo mas infavor na ang tangke ng aleman? un na nga e pag malapitan kaso asa malayo pa lang sila kinakarne na sila ng mga tangke ng mga socialista,, kaya nga sa tactic sila nagrely at flanks e.
isa pa bro mali ka na naman dahil kahit sa malapitan laging talo tangke ng aleman, maliban na lang kung kuyog na kuyog ang tangke ng USSR or nagagamitan ng taktica such as barrage tactics o pag itsya ng dinamita sa loob ng tangke or kung titirahin nila ng sunodsunod ang tangke kahit hindi nakaka damage para magsi labasan ang mga walang alam na crew sa loob(which is kadlasang ng yayari lalo na sa mga KV dahil kadalasan walang damage pero iniiwan lang ng mga crew). at bro ang effectivity ng mga IS pag close combat againts a tank ay mas mataas dahil sa kabila ng size nila ang ramor nila makapal talaga besides ang mga main guns nila matindi din. lalo na ung is-2

ano naman ang kinalaman ng Sturmgeschütz III sa SU? alam mo ba ng intende lang ito sa mga light at medium tanks?

2:1 ba bro?sigurado ka ratio ng russian tanks ba 2 against german tanks or worldcup qaulifier to noong sept-oct 2008 ng russia at germans?

besides bro hindi kelangan maging one on one ang labanan dahil most historians said 12(some states 15) german tanks is to one soviet tank with a well trained crew or just even a crew with a decent training. i search mo si Lt. Pavel Gudz isang kv1 tank commander 89th indipendent Tank Battalion ang killang naka knock out ng 10 tangke matapos mkatangap ng 29 hits mula sa mga kalabang tangke at at guns.

isa pa kaya sila modify ng modify dahil hindi nila matapatan ang tnagke ng mga russian, kungm tatapatn man nila ung bagong model na nman ng russians na popoblemahin na nakalabas na.

mga tangke lang talaga ng mga nasa west ang kayangkaya ng mga germans. kung meron man poblema sa mga USSR un ay un iniiwan ng mga karamihan sa crew nila ung mga tangke nila matapos tamaan kahit na wala gaanong damage or totally walang damage na natangap ang tangke.meron din nagbangit dati na yung iba nman ay tumatakas once na me chance sila para sa kanilang freedom(tinatakasan ng ibang ruso ang USSR at dahil ayaw na bumalik sa USSR)






----
Gen. Maj. Morgunov, the armoured commander in Ukraine in 1941 wrote in a secret report: "Special mention should be made of the good work of the 4th, 8th and 15th Mechanized Corps who showed that a single KV tank was worth 10-14 enemy tanks in battle". Army commanders appreciated the tank's near invulnerability and pleaded for more.

Gen. Maj. Rokossowkiy said: "The KV tanks literally stunned the enemy. They withstood the fire of every type of gun that the German tanks were armed with"
=====----
mga statements sa side ng germans
=====----
6. Panzer-Division war diary, 25 June 41
"Unfortunately, the Russian 52 ton heavy tanks showed that it was almost insensitive to hits from the 10.5cm [field howitzer]. Several hits from a 15cm [field howitzer] were ineffective and bounced off. "

"... a Russian heavy tank had blocked the communications route ... An 8.8cm Flak battery was sent up by the commander to fight this tank. It was just as unseccessful as the 10.5cm battery whose fire was directed by a forward observer. In addition, an attempt by a Pionier assault troop using balled explosives failed. It was impossible to get close to the tank because of heavy machine gun fire."

3. Panzer-Division war diary, 10 Jan 42

"It is noteworthy that the Pz-III ... hit a T34 tank driving along the village street at a range of about 20 meters and four times at a range of 50 meters with 5cm Pzgr 40 without observing any effect."

12. Panzer-Division war diary, 30 March 42

"... encountered a 52 ton tank and a T34. Under the covering fire from one Panzer, the other pair circled to the left and from a range of 50 to 80 meters opened fire on the enemy tanks. All three Pz-IV scored hits that showed no effect other than on the enemy morale.... the 53 ton ton tank drove off at high speed ... the T34 followed him."
------

. sensya na po di ko nagawang APA format hehe . basta galing yan kay Dr. Leo Niehorster.(italyano sya huh hindi russian)

 
isa pa bro ang kaunaunahang defeat ng germans asa russian soil. ang pinaka maraming namatay na german soldiers(just soldiers no civilians or blahblahblah included)asa russian soil pa din. alam mo ba ibig sabihin nun?


ano kamo bro?hindi mo nabalitaan??ang pagkakaalam mo?nice sayo na rin nang galing, e ang kaso hindi nga ganun ung ngyari kagaya sa pagkakaalam mo. isa pa doon sa nabangit mo ung mga  time na iyon nag uumpisa na sumulong ang mga russians

« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 05:33:41 am by rayn1984 »

ironhot

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2008, 05:36:37 am »
andito na naman tayo...

it was Operation Sealion by the Germans

Hitler believed the war was practically over and the British, defeated on the continent and without European allies, would

quickly come to terms with Germany.[11] Although there was an element of British public and political sentiment favouring

negotiated peace with a clearly ascendant Germany, among them the Foreign Secretary, Lord Halifax, the recently-

installed Churchill nonetheless refused to consider an armistice with Hitler's Germany.[12] Churchill's skillful use of rhetoric

hardened public opinion against a peaceful resolution and prepared the British for a long war.... (galing ng wiki eto)



may 10 and 11 1941, heavy bombing of london...



The French and the British handed Germany a large portion of Czechoslovakia at the Munich Conference in September

1938. Hitler had then taken the rest of Czechoslovakia by March 1939.... dahil takot nga sila!


But was the Battle of Britain an RAF or a senior service triumph? Churchill always gave credit to 'the Few', possibly

because those brave young pilots gave him a rhetorical symbol for his defiance of Hitler and one, moreover, visible to

Roosevelt and the Americans.....Private Battles

by Simon Garfield

Adolf Hitler, Directive No. 16 (16th July, 1940)

As England, despite her hopeless military situation, still shows no sign of willingness to come to terms, I have decided to

prepare, and if necessary to carry out, a landing operation against her.

The aim of this operation is to eliminate the English motherland as a base from which war against Germany can be

continued and, if necessary, to occupy completely.
 
tsaka nag bago isip ni hitler pla d2... kaya naisipan nyang

(German historians usually place the beginning of the battle in mid-August 1940 and end it in May 1941, on the withdrawal

of the bomber units in preparation for Operation Barbarossa...Campaign against the USSR on 22 June 1941.)(alam nyo

naman cguro ang reason d2 kung bakit eto ang naisip nya?)


wla kasi ako sa bahay, sa Americana ko yata or sa Compton's eto talaga na basa...

tsaka bro, hindi yata to tinturo sa skul?! example lng, tinuro ba sa atin kung sino ang utak sa pag patay kay BONI! at bakit

sya pinatay!!!!




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rayn1984

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2008, 07:52:16 am »
wla kasi ako sa bahay, sa Americana ko yata or sa Compton's eto talaga na basa...

tsaka bro, hindi yata to tinturo sa skul?! example lng, tinuro ba sa atin kung sino ang utak sa pag patay kay BONI! at bakit

sya pinatay!!!!

first of all ung tungkol kay bonifacio ung pagpapapatay sa kanya  nabangit sa amin ng teacher namin sa grade school iyon. grade four pa ata ako or grade five ,teacher namin sa subject na sibika ata iyon me discussion pa nga xa jan e.teacher ko rin noong second year binangit ito.(parehas sila kapampangan ang sinisisi) at kung hindi ko nagkakamali noong nasa pilipinas pa ako binabatikus na ang topic/issue na ito ung iba ang sabi caviteno ang pumatay dahil daw sa cavite xa dinali sa kasong trasoning ung iba nman ang sabi kapampangan daw ang dumali kaya tnawag sila na dugong aso, at ung iba sa paanan daw ng arayat xa dinale. wala nman sapat na ebidensya dito e. wala nman makakapagsabi kung totoo ito dahil walang pruweba, so ano point para ituro sa skwelahan itong poorly documented at nag lalack ng evodence? di ako sure kung kamusta na ito dahil wala na ako sa pinas pero i think even up to know wla pa ring evidence.


andito na naman tayo...

it was Operation Sealion by the Germans

Hitler believed the war was practically over and the British, defeated on the continent and without European allies, would

quickly come to terms with Germany.[11] Although there was an element of British public and political sentiment favouring

negotiated peace with a clearly ascendant Germany, among them the Foreign Secretary, Lord Halifax, the recently-

installed Churchill nonetheless refused to consider an armistice with Hitler's Germany.[12] Churchill's skillful use of rhetoric

hardened public opinion against a peaceful resolution and prepared the British for a long war.... (galing ng wiki eto)



bro tatanongin kita, mismong mga catholics saitaly nagnsist nawag magparticipate sa gera. nag withdraw ba ang italy. hindi mo rin masasabi na magwiwithdraw na dapat sila.ang spanish natatakot sa germans although neutral sila. masasabi mo ba na susuko na dapat sila? ang USSR nakamove forward ng germans kahit ang moscow. masasabi mo ba na muntik ng masakop ng germans ang russia. same thing sa british. meron bang historian na me officially mentioned na muntik na sumuko ang brtain?like what i mentioned before hangang sa mga huling "importanteng" meeting ng mga alies leaders andun ung punong ministro ng UK, so pano mo masasabing muntik na sila sumuko? i mentioned na rin natin ang mga laban sa africa. ano ba ngyari dun?

bumaling ang attention ni hitler sa east kasi di siya nagtatagumpay sa UK(although hindi din siya technically nalato)

personal opions are different from facts bro
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 08:08:23 am by rayn1984 »

Idiot

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2008, 01:09:58 am »
yeah pareng Ironhot

Specifist si ryan wala tayong magagawa dyan

Specifist construct a condition of facts kapag wala sa condition of facts niya mali wala siyang pakialam kahit anong sabihin natin

Generalist tayo kahit  anong gawin natin pipilitin pa rin tama siya

nge saan mo sino ang tinutukoy mo si Aguinaldo or boni

Si Aguinaldo ang nagpapatay kay Boni dahil threat siya

ang nanghuli kay Aguinaldo ay mga kapampangan dahil hinuli si Agui galit ang mga Ilokano at mga tagalogs sa kapampangan kaya tinawag silang dugong aso

Honestly idol ng mga Kapampangan si Boni so paano siya papatayin

true facts was mercenary ang mga kapampangan tawag sa kanila Macabebe soldiers dahil mercenary sila they work for a higher price na hindi rin sinulat na ang territory of Pampanga ay halos 2/3 ng luzon before spanish colonization at that time ni hindi sinulat kung bakit binaril yung tumatawid sa tulay? nasan yung bayad ng mga espanyol para sa paglaya sa Pinas saan dinala ni Aguinaldo

Spanish natakot sa NAzi I never heard about that. Sinopurtahan ng mga Nazi ang rebellion doon nanalo ang bata nila. paano sila takot? Neutral sila dahil heavenly destroyed ang bansa

paano mag withdraw ang Italy e gusto ni Mussolini na ibalik ang emperyong romano, Catholic church sila pa nga ang nag approve na atakihin ang Poland. Yung inaatake ang Poland may basbas pa ng simbahan pati ang mga gamit ni hitler ay cross na galing sa mga catholic

It is not written in history kung bakit hindi pinagpatuloy ang Operation sealion masyadong questionable ito dahil lang ba takot si Hitler etc

there is a big reason about that na nakatago na hindi dapat ilabas dahil history books hides the truth especially ang nanalo sa gyera ay allies dapat yung pakita natin sa Nazi ay masama

kung sakali man na maglanding ang mga Nazi sa Britain syempre susurender sila dahil wala silang point of retreat dahil Isolated sila.

Ironhot maybe correct na nasa option ng mga Generals nila ang pag surrender sakali man dumating ang Aleman kahit na hindi nakasulat sa history books. It maybe an option na hindi pewede y public

The environment at that may agent ang Britain sa NAzi alam nila na lulusubin sila naka ready na nga ang mga troops ng Nazi sa Operation sealion

ang question bakit hindi nilusob ni HItler bakit nagbago ang isip niya? hindi natin alam yun at isusulat lang ng mga historian ang gusto nilang ipaalam baut the whole fact hindi. Pero may political element na hindi sinulat


Yung redcoats vs redcoats pakibigay lang ng source

 


tigerwing

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2008, 03:06:18 am »
Akala ko ba eh usapang tangke ito? Bakit nagkaroon ng V2, SRBM, at pati sina Boni at Aguinaldo eh napasama?  smoking::


Niwei, back to topic..

I dont know much about WW2 tanks but I do believe that Russian Armor is supreme..

Some info from wikipedia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_IV

With the German invasion of the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941, the unanticipated appearance of the superior T-34 and KV-1 tanks prompted the decision to further upgrade the Panzer IV's 75-millimetre (2.95 in) gun. The decision was also made to give the Panzer IV's a high-velocity 75-millimetre (2.95 in) gun suitable for antitank use (the Panzer III was unsuited for further modification

Throughout 1943, the German army lost 2,352 Panzer IVs on the Eastern Front; some divisions were reduced to 12–18 tanks by the end of the year.[73] In 1944, a further 2,643 Panzer IVs were destroyed, and such losses were becoming increasingly difficult to replace. The elimination of Army Group Center in mid-1944, during Operation Bagration, crippled the Wehrmacht. By the final months of the war, the Panzer IV was definitively outclassed by the upgraded T-34/85, mounting an 85-millimetre (3.35 in) gun, and other late-model Soviet tanks such as the 122-millimetre (4.80 in)-armed IS-2 heavy tank.[82] Nevertheless, due to a shortage of replacement Panther tanks, the Panzer IV continued to form the core of Germany's armored divisions, including elite units such as the II SS Panzer Corps, through 1944.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank

....The Panther first saw action at Kursk on July 5, 1943. Early tanks were plagued with mechanical problemsthe track and suspension often broke, and the engine was dangerously prone to overheating and bursting into flames. At Kursk, more Panthers were disabled by their own failings than by enemy action. For example, the XLVIII Panzer Corps reported on July 10, 1943, that they had 38 Panthers operational and 131 awaiting repair, out of about 200 they had started with on July 5. Heinz Guderian, who had not wanted Hitler to order them into combat so soon, later remarked about the early Panther's performance in the battle: "they burnt too easily, the fuel and oil systems were insufficiently protected, and the crews were lost due to lack of training...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_II


...the tanks had numerous technical issues. Notably, the steering control would often break down under the stress of the vehicle's weight. In addition, not only were the engines prone to overheating and failure, but they also consumed large amounts of fuel, attributed to the use of the 690 hp Maybach engine from the far smaller Panther tank. The engine had to constantly run at full power just to get the tank moving. Henschel & Son's chief designer Erwin Aders explained that "The breakdowns can be attributed to the fact that the Tiger II had to go straight into series production without the benefit of test results." The engine and drivetrain was overburdened by the weight and would have required more testing to work out problems, a common problem among heavy tanks that pushed the limits of powerplants and transmissions...


..The first use of the Tiger II in combat was in Normandy on 18 July 1944 with the 503rd Heavy Panzer Battalion (schwere Panzerabteilung 503). It was first used on the Eastern Front on 12 August 1944 with schwere PzAbt 501 in the fighting at the Soviet Baranov bridgehead over the Vistula River. Eleven Tiger IIs were lost between 11 and 13 August when confronted by the Soviet T-34/85, IS-2 and inconvenient sandy terrain..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34

The T-34 is often used as a symbol for the effectiveness of the Soviet counterattack against the Germans. The appearance of the T-34 in summer 1941 was a psychological shock to German soldiers, who had been prepared to face an inferior Soviet enemy; this is shown by the diary of Alfred Jodl, who seems to have been taken by surprise at the appearance of the T-34 in Riga (Zaloga & Grandsen 1984:127). The T-34 could take on all 1941 German tanks effectively. However, the new tank suffered severe problems, e.g. from engines literally grinding to halt due to dust and sand ingestion—the original Pomon filter was almost totally ineffective—and some serious mechanical troubles beset its transmission and clutch. At least half the first summer's total tank losses were due to breakdowns rather than German fire, although this also included old tanks in disrepair (Zaloga & Grandsen 1984:127). There was a shortage of repair equipment, and it was not uncommon for early T-34s to go into combat carrying a spare transmission on the engine deck. The mechanical troubles were eventually sorted out.

During the winter of 1941–42, the T-34 again dominated German tanks through its ability to move over deep mud or snow without bogging down. German tanks could not move over the same terrain the T-34 could handle. The Panzer IV used an inferior leaf spring suspension and narrow track with a tendency to sink in deep mud and snow (Perrett 1999).

The T-34-85 in early 1944 gave the Red Army a tank with better armour and mobility than German Pzkw IV and Sturmgeschütz III, but it could not match the Panther in gun or armour protection. To the Soviet advantage there were far fewer Panthers than T-34s, and the T-34-85 was good enough to allow skilled crew and tactical situations to tip the balance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IS-2

One of the IS-2's most notable engagements took place during the fighting in August 1944 to establish a bridgehead across the river Vistula around the town of Sandomierz. This was the first time the IS-2 had come up against the Tiger II. During the engagement on August 13, the 71st Independent Heavy Tank Regiment's eleven IS-2s blocked an attack by fourteen Tiger IIs of the 105th Heavy Panzer Regiment. An engagement at about 700 metres (770 yd) coupled with skilled tactical handling saw four Tiger IIs destroyed for the loss of three IS-2s and seven damaged.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 03:18:36 am by tigerwing »

rayn1984

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2008, 04:00:51 am »
yeah pareng Ironhot

Specifist si ryan wala tayong magagawa dyan

Specifist construct a condition of facts kapag wala sa condition of facts niya mali wala siyang pakialam kahit anong sabihin natin

Generalist tayo kahit  anong gawin natin pipilitin pa rin tama siya


hindi ko alam ang ibaig sabihin mo sa specifist(hoestly hinahanap ko siya sa www.dictionary.com pero hindi ko rin siya nakita) kaya di ako magcocoment dun dahil hindi ko talaga alam meaning nun. pero hindi ko iniilit na tama ako. sinasabi ko lang ung mga info na nagather ko nakita ko at nabasa ko. and me mga some points na auko man sabihin parang iba yung mismong sinasabi mo eventhough hindi lahat. mas nag rerel pa nga ako sa newworldencyclopedia.org kaysa sa wiki.

facts ko?bro mas binabasa muna ako at hindi lang sa isang reference ako tumitingin bago ko sabihin ang isang bagay, sinisigurado ko rin na detalyado bro at hindi lang batay sa opinion ko. honestly noong asa pilipinas pa ako ang alam ko America lang talaga ang dahilan kung bakit nanalo ang allies sa gera. Atr dahil kinukuyog ng Germans ang tangke ng US paniwala ko germans ang pinakamalakas. kahit sa cold war paniwala ko walang wala ang USSR kasi ang kwento sakin ng erpatz ko mga pipitsyugin ang mga armaments ng mga russo dati pa. nung wala na ako sa pinas saka ko nalaman na ang nagawa lang ng US sa europe e iligtas ang kalyansa nya sa europe, sumabwat sa d-day hangang sa pagpuksa pasok sa germany,  at magbigay ng supply. sa pacific ang talagang main role niya at sa africa. ska ko lang nalaman un nung wala na ako sa pinas, pati ung mga technology ng USSR na akala ko dati e walang kwenta sa gera dahil sa kanila ang pinakamaraming namatay. saka ko lang nalaman ang pag dating sa amas (pwera sa dagat, at sa himpapawid;eventhough kaya nilang sumabay kung me mga mainam sila pilot)pagiging superb nila at kung ano ang mga dahilan kung baikit marami sa kanila ang namatay. honestly noong bago pa ako dito me ka debate ako na veteran noong panahon ng ww2 na customer namin(meron kasi dito parang shelter para sa matatandang veterano), un nga lang romano siya ,pero under siya sa sicily. iisa lang ang sinasabi niya sa akin pag nagdedebate kami ,manood ng history channel(i think meron yatang history channel jan sa atin sa home cable at sky cable , hindi lang ako sigurado) at magbasa ng facts dahil wala nman daw ako dun. kaya ko nalaman kung  ano talaga ang role at kung ano meron ang USSR base sa mga facts na nkikita ko. at isa pa hindi ko pinipilit na tama ako at hindi totoong wala ako pakielam sa mga sinasabi mo, hindi mo ba napansin sa bawat sasabihin mo sinasagot ko batay sa mga infos na nagather ko. first of all ung sa sinabi mo na magsusurender na ang briton tinanong kita kung ano proof mo saka mo pinasok ang sealion sinasagot lang kita , hanapin mo sa wikipedia mo yung operaion sealion tignan mo ung hanay ng Cancelation. nakalagay doon na naconvinced si hitler na doomed daw ang operation(hindi niya paniniwalaan iyon ng walang dahilan). sagot ko un sa nakaraang sinabi ng pareng ironhot mo tungkol sa operation sealion, kung sasabihin naman na kokonti lang ang planes ng UK, alam naman nating lahat  na sinusuplayan sila ng US.

at about sa sinasabi mo na generalist kau(ang ibig sabihin mo ba sa specefist e ung nag e specify?)

Quote
paano naging proof yun na superior ang germans?

Germany a small country pinag tulungan siya ng almost lahat ng malalaking nation sa buong mundo. this is the proof na advance ang germany

1. Albert Einstien was a geman citizen na naka imbento ng atomic bomb pero Hudyo siya umalis sa germany

mabait ang dyos paano kung na combine ni hitler ang v-2 tech niya at atomic bomb wala nang makakatalo sa kanya buti na lang hudyo si Albert

2. Enrico Fermi an Italian (allies of germany)- leader of Manhattan Project asawa niya hudyo kaya napa alis sila sa Italy

3. Carpet bombing ang nakaisip nito ay Italian (allies of Germany) pero na disregard siya

4. Magnetic powered train nakaisip nito ay germany late na invent ginagamit ito ngayon ng china at 4x times faster sa bullet train

natalo lang ang mga Aleman sa Battle of the Kursk dahil sa defense position ng mga tangke ng mga russian nakalitaw lang ang barrel at ang ulo nito kahit na superior ka e ma frustrate ka dahil hindi mo matatamaan ang tangke ng kalaban.
again waa lahat ng mga sinabi mo ay wala man lang connection sa pagigin superior ng germany. wala si einstein sa germany noon sau na ng galing , wala din si
Enrico Fermi at higit sa lahat asa italy siya hindi allies ng isang german at wala rin siya sa germany, ang carpet bombing ay naisip ng italyano hindi german so bat mo naisip isagot un sa statement mo na pagiging superior ng germs at ang magnetic train(damn sigurado ka ba magnetic powered train ,, hindi magnetic levitation train or maglev???) ang nagconceptualized at unang nag aral nito kahit german e nasa america pa siay(not to mention ang talgang unang naging successfull sa larangang ito tga UK at asa UK) e wala sa germany asa US. besides bro ano kinalaman ng maglev sa world war 2 at naging superior sila sa nabangit na gera????kung masyado mo ginawang broad ang tanong na iyon ang daming ivnetor jan na tga europe america at asia. iniisip mo ba ung mga nirereply mo at sinasabi mo or basta ka na lang maghahanap ng info babasahin ng konti ng hindi tinatapos ,tapos lalagay dito ng hindi tinatanong ang sarili kung ano ba talaga ang koneksyon ng mga pinagsasagot mo. hangat maari sa debate ng infos lang ako nakafocus ,pero para sabihin mo na wala ako pakielam sa sinasabi nyo ng pareng ironhot mo at pinipilit ko na tama ako e parang e1 ata,, sinasagot ko ung mga sinasabi mo batay sa mga facts bro.(para ako nakikipagtalo sa batang paslit nito, ilan taon ka na ba bro?)

about dun kay aguinaldo issue natin,
salamat doon sa true facts na sinabi mo. tiga laspinas ako at the same time tiga stamesa manila ako before. ibat ibang version kasi ng storya yung naririnig ko. dba nga nabangit ko ibatiba rin yung sinasabing lugar kung san pinatay si boni?basta ang nagkakaparehas lang si aguinaldo nagpapatay, sabi ng iba pagtraydor, dahilan ung iba ingit at natatakot na magkaroon ng kaagaw sa pwesto, ung iba nman ayaw ng mga opisyales dati na maging pangulo si boni  dahil wala siya pinagaralan kaya nagbotohan aun pinapatay niya tuloy si boni. kung galing sa libro ang sinabi mo at official fact talaga yan or galing sa isang documentary, paniniwalaan kita(kung ganoon man pasensya ka na hindi ko alam un). pero gaya ng sinabi ko sa pagkakaalam ko wala pang opisyal na nasulat sa totoong ngyari , dahil kulang sa ebidensya or pwde natin sabihin walang matibay na ebidensya na magpapatunay sa bawat version ng storya. wala nga pruweba na si aguinaldo talga nagpapatay, o baka mamaya nga me  ginawa talgang kalokohan si boni kaya pinapataygaya ng nandaya sa tongits or whatever, uulitin ko walang opisyal na facts na enough evidence or proof tungkol dun.

ito sariling oinion ko lang huh halimbawa magkagalit tayo pero me kaaway tayo at alam natin na di natin kaya ang kalaban hindi ba magtutulungan muna tau at pipilitin talunin ang kalaban bago tau magpatayan? siguro nman naisip na rin ni aguinaldo yan-self opinion ko po ito huh


about doon sa spanish, hahanap ako ng reference sa net or libro at ibibigay ko sau(kung libro natural ung title lang at page ng libro bahala ka na maghanap sa library) sa history channel ko lang kasi nakita un. nabangit na natakot sila sa NAZI dahil pag benenta ng bala sa magkabilang panig ang main na negosyo nila noong ww2. noong naapansin nila na naiirita ang mga generals ni hitler at baka gawin silang next target na capturin , binawasan nila ang pag bebenta sa allies at gumawa sila ng paraan wag lang uminit ang mata sa kanila ng germany.kahit si Ramón Serrano Súñer ginawang foreign meninster dahil isa siyang germanophile. at noong na tinawag siya na gravedigger of the new Spain ano ngyari hindi ba ska sila nag participate at tumulong sa mga aleman sa pag gera ng USSR?


kung magbabasa ka maigi lagi mo makikita sa history na bumaling ang attention ni hitler sa USSR dahil hindi niya magawang masakop ang UK. kahit tignan mo pa sa wikipedia nyo naresist ng US at briton ang mga NAZI at iba pang kalyansa ng germany, tinutulungan pa sila ng US.

not to mention na hindi lang UK mismo ang binibigyan ng attention ni Hitler kahit ang Africa mismo. kung meron man mga political lement na naisulat mag check ka sa iba , again bro kagaya na lang sa mga ibang post ko dito kahit sa mga check mo yung ibang post ko sa mga ibang topic "wag ka mag rely sa mga western infos lalo na sa mala Americanong info"higit sa lahat wag ka magrely sa wiki honestly bago ko ilagay kung ano isasagot ko titiginin muna wiki then after that magchecheck a aq ng iba pang reources meron man or wla sa wiki. isa pa kahit ako at kahit ikaw lahat tau pwde natin baguhin at kalikutin ang wiki.

siguro tama ka "hindi natin alam yun at isusulat lang ng mga historian ang gusto nilang ipaalam baut the whole fact hindi" pero hangat wala kang matibay na proof na batay sa fact e hindi ka makakapagbigay ng opinion mo. so sa mga ibang bagay i guest na wala sa mga hard copies(or soft copies) e hindi natin dapat pagdebatihan pa. bigyan na lang natin ng attention un sa mga meron na pwede nman natin iprovide.

paki check to

Britain, battle of (1940). In the summer of 1940 the Luftwaffe attempted to win air superiority over Britain as a sine qua non for an invasion code-named SEALION. On 30 June Herman Göring issued multiple directives to draw the RAF into combat over the Channel by attacking coastal convoys (which the Admiralty unwisely continued to run), and bombing the string of radar stations along the south coast, the British aircraft industry, and RAF airfields. This dispersion of effort was the first of a triad of reasons why the RAF won the battle. The second was Hugh Dowding, in charge of Fighter Command since 1937. He had been involved in the procurement of the Spitfire and the Hurricane, and in the development and deployment of radar. He resisted demands by Churchill to send his reserve of fighters to France, and refused to commit them in strength to defending the convoys, or indeed to involve them in mass battles at all. The third was that the Luftwaffe was not well equipped for a sustained air superiority campaign. Like the RAF's Hurricanes and Spitfires, the Messerschmitt Bf 109 was a short-range aircraft, but the former were fighting over their own bases. Likewise a downed pilot who survived was lost to the Luftwaffe but returned immediately to his RAF squadron.

The battle officially began on 13 August. Fighter losses were about even, but the Luftwaffe suffered from poor operational focus and shifting priorities. Unwilling to endure such heavy losses, Göring and Hitler switched in early September to a campaign of city bombing, allowing Fighter Command to recover. On 17 September, Hitler cancelled SEALION, although air raids continued.

Bibliography

Hough, Richard, and Richards, Denis, The Battle of Britain (London, 1989).
Murray, Williamson, Luftwaffe: Strategy for Defeat (Washington, 1985)
— Jamie Belich/Hugh Bicheno


I guess sa "The third was that the Luftwaffe was not well equipped for a sustained air superiority campaign" masasagot na nito ung mga sinasabi mo.
marahil tama ka na nasa option ng briton na sumurender sa aleman pero wala sa dictionary.



about sa redcoats vs blue coats napanood ko lang iyon sa tv(history channel) na dati ginamitan ng mga briton ng rocket(balistic pattern) pangontra sa defensive formation ng mga kano na kumpolkumpol na paikot magpapalipad ang mga briton ng rocket para pagbagsak sa gitna nung formation na ityon madedestruct ang mga kano at magkakaroon sila ng great aim. hnahahanap ako sa internet pra lang me maiprovide ako pero wala ako makita tanging ung pinalipad lang ni General Montgomery na rockets para isign na umatake ang nakikita ko.


hindi ko pinipilit na tama ako bro checkin mo nga ung mga sinasabi ko karamihan nman sa mga binagit ko hindi sariling opinion. honestly dito ko lang nabasa ung

britain was in ruins, dahil sa BLITZKRIEG... mag susurrender na nga sana sila....

eventhough iba ang sinasabi ng mga nababasa ko, pruweba na lang ng paulitulit ni churchill na pakikipagmeeting kna roosevelt at stalin
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 08:56:23 am by rayn1984 »

rayn1984

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2008, 04:08:21 am »
Akala ko ba eh usapang tangke ito? Bakit nagkaroon ng V2, SRBM, at pati sina Boni at Aguinaldo eh napasama?  smoking::

sensya na bro napalayo lang..
balik sa main topic
yan din ung paniwala ko e.yan din ung nabasa ko at napanood na mga facts, mas supreme ang russian armor, kontra sa mas superior daw ang tangke ng nazis.

ang malaking problema lang nila e kulang or halos wala silang sundalong kasing husay ng mga NAZIs

dragknot11

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2008, 01:30:21 am »
para sa kin... Sherman Firefly is the best! parang sniper kung sa army... di pa nakikita para asintahin man lang... naunahan ka na!!!

Observer1

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2008, 03:36:09 am »
para sa kin... Sherman Firefly is the best! parang sniper kung sa army... di pa nakikita para asintahin man lang... naunahan ka na!!!

yup ito ang tangke na magaling... for a very cheap and robust but a the same time astig sumira ng kalaban... kahit yung tiger wasak sa firefly... ^^ appreciate this one...
Preparing oneself to the the bitter end, I must.


Zornhau

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2008, 07:16:09 am »
AFAIK, the German Sturmgeschütz III (StuG) is one of the most efficiently used armored vehicle in WW2 by the Germans, w/c StuG Batallions were recorded in 1944 to have about 20,000 tank kills.

If 2 is to 1 ang labanan ng WW2 1 for Axis 2 for Allies...
Ang StuG naman ay 2 is to 1 din. 20,000 tank kills for 10,000 produced.

ironhot

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2008, 05:27:39 am »
the greatest invasion force in history—including 50 Finnish and Romanian and 207 German divisions armed with 3,300 tanks. They faced a Red Army of some 4,500,000 men and perhaps 15,000 tanks. ang dami anu?!!!!


For the campaign against the Soviet Union, the Germans allotted almost 150 divisions containing a total of about 3,000,000 men. Among these were 19 panzer divisions, and in total the “Barbarossa” force had about 3,000 tanks, 7,000 artillery pieces, and 2,500 aircraft. It was in effect the largest and most powerful invasion force in human history. The Germans’ strength was further increased by more than 30 divisions of Finnish and Romanian troops.



The Soviet Union had twice or perhaps three times
the number of both tanks and aircraft as the Germans had, but their aircraft were mostly obsolete. The Soviet tanks were about equal to those of the Germans, however. A greater hindrance to Hitler’s chances of victory was that the German intelligence service underestimated the troop reserves that Stalin could bring up from the depths of the U.S.S.R. The Germans correctly estimated that there were about 150 divisions in the western parts of the U.S.S.R. and reckoned that 50 more might be produced. But the Soviets actually brought up more than 200 fresh divisions by the middle of August, making a total of 360. The consequence was that, though the Germans succeeded in shattering the original Soviet armies by superior technique, they then found their path blocked by fresh ones. The effects of the miscalculations were increased because much of August was wasted while Hitler and his advisers were having long arguments as to what course they should follow after their initial victories. Another factor in the Germans’ calculations was purely political, though no less mistaken; they believed that within three to six months of their invasion, the Soviet regime would collapse from lack of domestic support.


(Hitler’s generals advised him against waging war on two fronts – especially since the Red Army was far superior in number – but Hitler pressed ahead regardless.

The German advance was swift at first – 200 miles in the first week. In July, the city of Smolensk had been secured and Leningrad (now St Petersburg) was under siege soon after. By September, the city of Kiev had fallen with 650,000 Russian soldiers – the most prisoners ever taken in battle.

By the end of the year, more than 3 million Russians had been taken prisoner and another million were dead. The Nazis had the Kremlin in their sights. ) Discovery Channel


Advance over Moscow  (eto na lng sana, ang natitira) nasaan ang 15k tanks ng russia?

 
After the conquest of Ukraine the central armies had the resources to resume their advance over Moscow. On October 7 the Germans managed to surround 6 soviet armies in Viazma and 3 armies in Briansk once again. The advance went on with very rough resistance until November 27 when the Germans spearheads reached the outskirts of Moscow where they stopped and forced to retreat. The soviet will to resist combined with the "winter general" finally stopped the German offensive.


The German attack on the Soviet Union was to have an immediate and highly salutary effect on Great Britain’s situation. Until then Britain’s prospects had appeared hopeless in the eyes of most people except the British themselves; and the government’s decision to continue the struggle after the fall of France and to reject Hitler’s peace offers could spell only slow suicide unless relief came from either the United States or the U.S.S.R. Hitler brought Great Britain relief by turning eastward and invading the Soviet Union just as the strain on Britain was becoming severe.



Nevertheless, by mid-July the Germans had advanced more than 400 miles and were only 200 miles from Moscow. They still had ample time to make decisive gains before the onset of winter, but they lost the opportunity, primarily because of arguments throughout August between Hitler and the OKH about the destination of the next thrusts thence: whereas the OKH proposed Moscow as the main objective, Hitler wanted the major effort to be directed southeastward, through the Ukraine and the Donets Basin into the Caucasus, with a minor swing northwestward against Leningrad (to converge with Leeb’s army group).



Bock’s renewed advance on Moscow began on Oct. 2, 1941. Its prospects looked bright when Bock’s armies brought off a great encirclement around Vyazma, where 600,000 more Soviet troops were captured. That left the Germans momentarily with an almost clear path to Moscow. But the Vyazma battle had not been completed until late October; the German troops were tired, the country became a morass as the weather got worse, and fresh Soviet forces appeared in the path as they plodded slowly forward. Some of the German generals wanted to break off the offensive and to take up a suitable winter line. But Bock wanted to press on, believing that the Soviets were on the verge of collapse, while Brauchitsch and Halder tended to agree with his view. As that also accorded with Hitler’s desire, he made no objection. The temptation of Moscow, now so close in front of their eyes, was too great for any of the topmost leaders to resist. On December 2 a further effort was launched, and some German detachments penetrated into the suburbs of Moscow; but the advance as a whole was held up in the forests covering the capital. The stemming of this last phase of the great German offensive was partly due to the effects of the Russian winter, whose subzero temperatures were the most severe in several decades.

sabi ko naman nun, natalo sila dahil sa kondisyon na eto-------------------

In October and November a wave of frostbite cases had decimated the ill-clad German troops, for whom provisions of winter clothing had not been made, while the icy cold paralyzed the Germans’ mechanized transport, tanks, artillery, and aircraft. The Soviets, by contrast, were well clad and tended to fight more effectively in winter than did the Germans. By this time German casualties had mounted to levels that were unheard of in the campaigns against France and the Balkans; by November the Germans had suffered about 730,000 casualties.



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rayn1984

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2008, 05:34:15 am »
first of all read the your whole book completely and absorb every details. each details has a question why for ever detailslearn to check them out.


the greatest invasion force in history—including 50 Finnish and Romanian and 207 German divisions armed with 3,300 tanks. They faced a Red Army of some 4,500,000 men and perhaps 15,000 tanks. ang dami anu?!!!!
15000? you mean in op.barabossa? you did not mentioned how many soviet tanks went into action. how many were on stationary. how many were destroyed in their factories and how many were never been engaged at all but destroyed. how many tanks which were were abandoned even though those tanks does not have damage at all. and most of all what was the exact number of tanks that went into action and how many tanks never seen the battle at all
i believed the main topic here is the toughest armor of world war 2. so i guess we need to provide more on infos of each nation's tanks performance. to come to think of it soviet tanks are just being driven by untrained crews but still they even manage to crush german's armor. think about it.



The Soviet Union had twice or perhaps three times
the number of both tanks and aircraft as the Germans had, but their aircraft were mostly obsolete. The Soviet tanks were about equal to those of the Germans, however.
ussr aircrafts are obsolete compare to germans aircrafts. but their tanks were nver been euqal to germans. try to read and gather more infos from other sources, not just one. compare what they'll say



sabi ko naman nun, natalo sila dahil sa kondisyon na eto-------------------
In October and November a wave of frostbite cases had decimated the ill-clad German troops, for whom provisions of winter clothing had not been made, while the icy cold paralyzed the Germans’ mechanized transport, tanks, artillery, and aircraft. The Soviets, by contrast, were well clad and tended to fight more effectively in winter than did the Germans. By this time German casualties had mounted to levels that were unheard of in the campaigns against France and the Balkans; by November the Germans had suffered about 730,000 casualties.
the weather has have to do why germans has weakened when they start their operation barabossa but the weather was never been the main reason why. understamating the soviets was the main reason why. soviests who died because of disease during winter time were tramendously and numeraclly way more than those germans who dieseas or climate conditon because of the weather. if your talking about the whole theater of ussr-german in world war 2. winter was not the reason why soviet won over nazi. as the matter of fact on august 3, 1943 germans were still attacking, the 4th panzer army launched an attack toward Kursk. most of their troops in other borders were waiting for order of attac. and some from other brders are still engaged in combat. soviet also acquired a decent attack at the beging of august to ocotber(or november) and that's summer to fall in russia.
try checking out "Why the Allies Won" by Richard Overy (ISBN 0-393-03925-0).



ironhot

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2008, 11:28:29 pm »
brad! ung 15k na unit nila, in service yan at na mobilized ang mga

yan, dahil nga gyera... i search mo nga, kung anu na lng ang

natitirang stronghold location ng russians...

d2  lalong nakilala si kumander william ang unit nya ay TIGER... 

may 80 or 88 rings ang turret nito... eto ang bilang ng nasira nyang

kalaban... kaya ung naka patay sa kanya ang pinag mayabang(dahil

his a legend).
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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2008, 11:53:49 pm »

gaya nga ng sabi ko, naisalba sila nung araw na kung saan, na imbento nila ung radar...

britain was in ruins, dahil sa BLITZKRIEG... mag susurrender na nga sana sila....

correction po ka espiya..

britain wag in ruin especially London ang other key cities...

but...yun cnasabi mo na BLITZKREIG ang dahilan malabo ata yun...

kaya nga binobomba nang Luftwaffe (German AirForce) ang Britain ay para matalo ang Royal AirForce..

read this..

Blitzkrieg (German for "lightning war"listen is a popular name for an offensive operational-level military doctrine which involves an initial bombardment followed by the employment of motorized mobile forces attacking with speed and surprise to prevent an enemy from implementing a coherent defense. The founding principles of these types of operations were developed in the 20th century by various nations, and adapted in the years after World War I, largely by the German Wehrmacht, to incorporate modern weapons and vehicles as a method to help avoid the stalemate of trench warfare and linear warfare in future conflicts. The first practical implementations of these concepts coupled with modern technology were instituted by the Wehrmacht in the opening theatres of World War II.

The strategy was particularly effective to the German invasions of Western Europe and initial operations in the Soviet Union. These operations were dependent on surprise penetrations, general enemy unpreparedness and an inability to react swiftly enough to the attacker's offensive operations.

kasi po ang BLITZKREIG ay ginawa para sa landwarfare...

kaya nga gusto nang Germany na mawasak muna ang RAF para sa preparation nila for the invasion of Britain...
If you are good at something don't make it for FREE

Why so serious?

ironhot

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2008, 04:56:23 am »
si michael Wittman not william ;D
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rayn1984

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2008, 05:16:14 am »
brad! ung 15k na unit nila, in service yan at na mobilized ang mga

hindi lahat bro namobilized hidi rin lahat nakarating sa frontline. isa pa 3months after ng war, saka lang nagdatingan ang first batch ng mga russian tanks. gaya ng mga sinabi ko sa mga early post ko ano ba ang mga russian crew bro?hindi naman sila kasing bagsik ng mga german crews. kahit mga sundalo ng USSR binihisan lang at binigyan ng baril, ung iba nga dinampot lang 2 weeks after german's first attack tapos binigyan ng baril sabay sugod na dahil babarilin pag hindi lumusob sa mga germans. besides ussr lang ang me mga crew na habang pinapatakbo ang tangke, binabasa ang manual at pina.gaaralan habang nakikipaggera. isa iyon sa mga dahilan kung bakit nakilala ng husto ang kv1 at t34 dahil most sa mga crew nito nfirst time sumakay ng tangke pero nakakapatay. ini-include ko iyon dahil ang topic dito ay toughest tanks right? and like what i said bro from my recent post. and unang panalo ng USSR na masasabinng decent ay noong August-November 1943(time na naguumpisa na sila ng offensiva), hindi winter ito, at isa pa nung mga time na yun kahit us nahihirapan magpadala ng supply sa ussr.

i wonder kung asan na si idiot, ung mga tinatanong ko sa knya hindi na niya sinagot about sa mga pinagpopost niya

rayn1984

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Re: Which World War 2 Battle tank was the most effeciently used in battle?
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2008, 05:20:09 am »
and i dont think operation barabossa lang ang kelangan iconsider dito, besides like what i said 3moths after germans first attack saka lang naipadala ung mga first wav ng tanks(me mga tangke din na nakastationed sa front line, pero di naman napakinabangan ng mga soviets).

sa strategy lang talaga nadudurog ang mga ussr pero kung kasing husay ng mga sundalong germans ang mga sundalong soviets baka matagal ng natapos ang ww2 noong ginera ni hitler ang ussr.