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Author Topic: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.  (Read 29942 times)

etong

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2017, 12:51:07 am »
@AOSHI

sorry hindi ko nasagot ng tama kung bakit tingin ko ejk ang airstrike. Because 1 as CHR and you agreed that they should be arrested and 2. Dahil hindi na sila makakapagpaliwanag kung kasama nga talaga sila or nahatak lang ng grupo na magalsa. Its not CLEARLY because all we know is there are a group of "rebels" no list of names of all individuals and which groups are doing this. Mas malala ang airstrike because there is no attempt to try to arrest them instead of killing them outright. Im just relating it now why in that instance the same people who are against admin are in support of it by mere faith that they are really indeed rebels and airstrike is ok yet now against war on drugs wherein the same people cry foul.

KaMushroom

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2017, 01:35:27 am »
@AOSHI

sorry hindi ko nasagot ng tama kung bakit tingin ko ejk ang airstrike. Because 1 as CHR and you agreed that they should be arrested and 2. Dahil hindi na sila makakapagpaliwanag kung kasama nga talaga sila or nahatak lang ng grupo na magalsa. Its not CLEARLY because all we know is there are a group of "rebels" no list of names of all individuals and which groups are doing this. Mas malala ang airstrike because there is no attempt to try to arrest them instead of killing them outright. Im just relating it now why in that instance the same people who are against admin are in support of it by mere faith that they are really indeed rebels and airstrike is ok yet now against war on drugs wherein the same people cry foul.


Its EJK because it is unlawful not because its criminals that you are killing. All operations by there are sanctioned sa taas. Kung incendiary ginagamit nila sa tingin mo same padin? And they dont do airstrikes as much as they shell them out. Same padin general area tataman. And the purpose isnt really to arrest them but to kill them. Ngayon, ung mga police operations ba eh sanctioned para patayin yung mga small time pushers, yes legit nga pero para ba patayin yung mga pinapatay nila? So lahat ng criminals e pwede mong patayin? Ilulump mo nalang sila sa iisang category?
Inosente saan? im not claiming them to be innocent of their crimes but im claiming that they are not "Nanlaban". Tatlong tama sa ulo? Dalawa sa likod isa sa harap? Di naman magiging issue yan kung hindi ganon labas ng bankay ah?

And sa tingin mo papatayin nila ung mga terror members kung may mahuhuli silang nagiisa or dalawa sa bahay nila?

So is it possible na huliin ang mga adik na natutulog sa bahay? Yes.
Is it possible na huliin ang isang armed group na nakakalat sa gubat? Come on..
.

thomyorke

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2017, 01:40:11 am »

Of course we have to assume the worst. Thats why US called it off right? They dont want to risk killing innocents. Tigerwing said so himself i dont know why he has the audacity to claim why its not a problem or not bad whatever term you prefer...


https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP90M01243R001000300020-6.pdf

"US officials refused because of political risks in killing Filipinos"

I think this is where the confusion is. The statement is a bit vague. It just said Filipinos (not indicating rebels, or civilians but Filipinos in general). I believe that they intentionally said it that way because the US does not want any involvement at all with the mutiny. Even if they could accurately bomb rebels only.

Imagine the damage to PH-US ties, if they bombed the rebels but the mutiny succeeds anyway? My take is, that is the political risk they were trying to avoid. Not primarily because they fear civilians will end up as collateral damage.

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thomyorke

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2017, 01:55:58 am »
@AOSHI

sorry hindi ko nasagot ng tama kung bakit tingin ko ejk ang airstrike. Because 1 as CHR and you agreed that they should be arrested and 2. Dahil hindi na sila makakapagpaliwanag kung kasama nga talaga sila or nahatak lang ng grupo na magalsa. Its not CLEARLY because all we know is there are a group of "rebels" no list of names of all individuals and which groups are doing this. Mas malala ang airstrike because there is no attempt to try to arrest them instead of killing them outright. Im just relating it now why in that instance the same people who are against admin are in support of it by mere faith that they are really indeed rebels and airstrike is ok yet now against war on drugs wherein the same people cry foul.

The rebels were an immediate threat to the state hence deadly force is necessary. Drug suspects vary. Some died under suspicious circumstances.

Ex: drug suspect fought back after arrest "inside the police station".
      drug suspect fought back, but witnesses claimed the suspect did not resist.

etong

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2017, 03:11:05 am »

Its EJK because it is unlawful not because its criminals that you are killing. All operations by there are sanctioned sa taas. Kung incendiary ginagamit nila sa tingin mo same padin? And they dont do airstrikes as much as they shell them out. Same padin general area tataman. And the purpose isnt really to arrest them but to kill them. Ngayon, ung mga police operations ba eh sanctioned para patayin yung mga small time pushers, yes legit nga pero para ba patayin yung mga pinapatay nila? So lahat ng criminals e pwede mong patayin? Ilulump mo nalang sila sa iisang category?
Inosente saan? im not claiming them to be innocent of their crimes but im claiming that they are not "Nanlaban". Tatlong tama sa ulo? Dalawa sa likod isa sa harap? Di naman magiging issue yan kung hindi ganon labas ng bankay ah?

And sa tingin mo papatayin nila ung mga terror members kung may mahuhuli silang nagiisa or dalawa sa bahay nila?

So is it possible na huliin ang mga adik na natutulog sa bahay? Yes.
Is it possible na huliin ang isang armed group na nakakalat sa gubat? Come on..

Again you are referring to ISOLATED INCIDENTS. Ilang balita ba ang narinig mo na ganyan ang outcome to continue bringing that up? Bilang lang yan and it would be also because yung mga pulis involved are just covering their own asses, meaning gago na talaga yun pulis hindi dahil mandato nila ang patayin ang suspect nila.

Yes i would lump them all in that category anyone who fights back are criminals that is liable to law. Is that wrong? And no im not saying na lahat ng kriminal ay patayin kaya nga arrest muna diba? Then yun IF clause comes in (ie nanlaban) edi go for it. They are  just preserving their own life and that is legal and acceptable, again I beg you pls stop bringing up ISOLATED incidents in reply to this its getting old... it seems like you are the ones making excuses to continue pinning blame to the admin.

Let me ask this what if duterte is the one who requested the airstrike on alleged rebels? Would you still spout your nonsense na its lawful and according to some "not bad"? Baka pinuputak nyo ngayon is "komunista", "mamamatay tao" and "siraulo ang idol nyo"... clearly your views have been muddled with politics. Sole evidence is that you continue believing that crap that EJK is sponsored and all the killings, planting of evidences are intended even if all evidence says its not true.

Group hiding in the forest? How the hell can they possibly oust cory in the first place if thats the case? And yes its possible to arrest them even in that scenario, unlikely but possible and atleast they still have that option. Pag nagkaubusan na ng bala ano na patayin parin? Unli ammo ba ang hawak ng mga rebelde sa confined location nila? You come on...





tigerwing

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2017, 03:33:32 am »
@etong

You are all over the place bro. Again the issue here is Cory requested for airstrikes. What about it then? Anything wrong with that? Im pretty sure every presidents since after WW2 have authorized or atleast been informed about airstrikes conducted my the PAF. Im sure Duterte by now have done the same. So why is Cory being demonized and not the others?

This has nothing to do with EJK or the drug war. To say that they are the same because people die in both cases is like saying oranges and apples are the same because both a fruits that came from a tree.

 

etong

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2017, 03:55:59 am »
@etong

You are all over the place bro. Again the issue here is Cory requested for airstrikes. What about it then? Anything wrong with that? Im pretty sure every presidents since after WW2 have authorized or atleast been informed about airstrikes conducted my the PAF. Im sure Duterte by now have done the same. So why is Cory being demonized and not the others?

This has nothing to do with EJK or the drug war. To say that they are the same because people die in both cases is like saying oranges and apples are the same because both a fruits that came from a tree.

Way to avoid a discussion and still ask the same question i already answered im done...

You ask why the others are not demonized? There are no news regarding them. Post it here if you find one.

Yes its all about cory requested airstrikes i gave my opinion on why i think is true, then someone asked why people think that this is bad, I said why and you just ignored. Im not going to repeat it again for you. Then it all escalated with me connecting yours and others who have the same stand as you to ejk/duterte and how much of a hypocrite you all are when you take on views. Not going to write it all back again just back read. Or better yet just maintain your stance. Im not here to change your views anyways and i dont think it will ever do.

tigerwing

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2017, 06:31:23 am »
Way to avoid a discussion and still ask the same question i already answered im done...

You ask why the others are not demonized? There are no news regarding them. Post it here if you find one.

Yes its all about cory requested airstrikes i gave my opinion on why i think is true, then someone asked why people think that this is bad, I said why and you just ignored. Im not going to repeat it again for you. Then it all escalated with me connecting yours and others who have the same stand as you to ejk/duterte and how much of a hypocrite you all are when you take on views. Not going to write it all back again just back read. Or better yet just maintain your stance. Im not here to change your views anyways and i dont think it will ever do.

No one is being a hypocrite here. Its just you making no sense by trying to connect two completely different matters.

No news regarding airstrikes? Wow! You must really be living under a rock. There are several footage of PAF aircrafts unleashing their payloads shown in national TV. No one bat an eye. Then this issue of Cory requesting for airstrikes surfaced and suddenly there is a fuss. Why? Thats the question I want you to answer. Not the possible effect of an airstrike. Everyone is well aware of that..

And for the record, Ive said it before and will say it again, I personaly have no qualms about criminals getting killed. That is of course if they are really criminals and if talagang "nanlaban" and not just because the police said so.

Oh and please dont tell me its an isolated event. In case the news havnt reach you yet, a korean national was killed inside Camp Crame itself. Right under PDG dela Rosa's nose.  Lol.. with cops involved in crimes like this do you really buy the "nanlaban" excuse? Or are you going to pull the good cop-bad cop excuse again? If thats the case then Pdiggy and Gen. Bato should really start killing dirty cops first before anything else... 

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2017, 06:35:42 am »
This was serious coup attempt. The rebels were even able to possess and fly tora tora and tanks at that time. The Malacanyang, DND office and other military offices where under attack. They bomb and fire guns on those offices and killed civilians. I know because my relative was in the Office of Civil Defense at the time of the attack. As Cory is not a military personnel, she just look for all possible option to fight of the rebels. The some rebels are active members of AFP and our junior officers. They established RAM for this coup attempt.

At the end, good thing the airstrike was not pursued as it might destroy buildings and kill innocent people.

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/01/world/philippine-coup-attempts.html

bigbanggoo

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2017, 07:34:40 am »
Its bad in general because, Airstrike is an area wide attack. You cant possibly claim that all people in the area that they will attack are only the armed rebels. Maraming possible collateral damage of innocent people plus damages on structures that could be hit.


Hindi naman basta basta ginagawa yung airstrike. May process yan. Minomonitor muna yung lugar at sinisiguradong walang minimal casualties. It's possible that the rebels were hiding in a mountain area. It's also possible that what you said is true which is why walang nangyaring airstrike. SO basically your only valid reason for disliking it is that it's an EJK. But you support Duterte and his "EJK" right? Double standards?

bigbanggoo

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2017, 07:37:59 am »
^Just to be clear I'm fine with an aistrike targeted against armed rebels readying to launch a coup the same way I'm fine with Duterte killing all criminals. My point is that people who support Duterte's stance and are against this airstrike are clear hypocrites and they need to be called out.

etong

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2017, 09:49:15 am »
No one is being a hypocrite here. Its just you making no sense by trying to connect two completely different matters.

No news regarding airstrikes? Wow! You must really be living under a rock. There are several footage of PAF aircrafts unleashing their payloads shown in national TV. No one bat an eye. Then this issue of Cory requesting for airstrikes surfaced and suddenly there is a fuss. Why? Thats the question I want you to answer. Not the possible effect of an airstrike. Everyone is well aware of that..

And for the record, Ive said it before and will say it again, I personaly have no qualms about criminals getting killed. That is of course if they are really criminals and if talagang "nanlaban" and not just because the police said so.

Oh and please dont tell me its an isolated event. In case the news havnt reach you yet, a korean national was killed inside Camp Crame itself. Right under PDG dela Rosa's nose.  Lol.. with cops involved in crimes like this do you really buy the "nanlaban" excuse? Or are you going to pull the good cop-bad cop excuse again? If thats the case then Pdiggy and Gen. Bato should really start killing dirty cops first before anything else...


Please show me the recent airstrike article or news here in our country perhaps nga kulang ako sa media attention pasensya na im not that focused on news as i thought i had been. But please check for airstrikes in general around the globe too and then tell me there are no collateral damages in most of them if there are none id concede that airstrikes are okay and wont make a fuss now about this issue. Because from what ive seen in the past most of those incidents show innocent civilians are victims together with their intended target and that is why im leaning on it as bad news. You saw several footages then it shouldnt be too hard for you as ive no idea which groups are currently being attacked and such. Im being serious here. Just PM links or just the keyword to search for ill look at them myself i wont bother you for explaining the incidents. Thank you.

The answer seems not acceptable to you kasi "its not related" It became a fuss because of the double standards of people. People acknowledge that na walang problema magairstrike pero pagdating sa drug war they are singing a different tune. pakibasa nalang po uli yung early replies ko andun po yung statement ko.

It IS an isolated event. Please tell me ilan pang ganyang insidente ang nangyari? Hindi naman po ganun kadami - 2? 3? 4? Below 10? If ganyan lang kakonti how is that not considered isolated? Please dont call it an excuse, its reality. There are good cops and there are bad cops. Havent you seen how bato has been doing his work left and right and how shaken gen. Bato about the incident with espinosa during hearings and how he is not sure who to trust anymore in his side while crying uncontrollably? Thats the case and you are right that bato should start with dirty cops which he he has been doin but of course he has to trust some people parin, its just unfortunate that some of those he trusts are the wrong people. Hindi po superhero ang mga leader ngayon na kayang linisin agad ang mga kagaguhan na nangyayari sa loob which they were not part of until just last year. Kun isang pamilya nga di kayang subaybayan oras oras ang activity ng anak. Sa isang malaking organization pa kaya. No one can do that. to just control everyone with an order and everyone will SURELY follow. Its a process, naglilitawan na ang mga kabalbalan ngayon pero dahil dun naeexpose at nababawasan na sila. IMO we are actually moving forward with all these incidents being exposed now.

Hindi naman basta basta ginagawa yung airstrike. May process yan. Minomonitor muna yung lugar at sinisiguradong walang minimal casualties. It's possible that the rebels were hiding in a mountain area. It's also possible that what you said is true which is why walang nangyaring airstrike. SO basically your only valid reason for disliking it is that it's an EJK. But you support Duterte and his "EJK" right? Double standards?

Yes my reason for disliking airstrikes is ejk and in general because its risky no matter how calculated it is. There are just some factors you cant control. Clearly US had the same thinking about it back then thats why they never pushed through...

I support dutertes war on drugs but please prove to me there are ejks that he has sponsored and i will concede to you as well that i have double standards.

Im done for real now. Ill just reply to concede if ever youve proven me wrong about that.

PS I realise i have been acting harsh and I apologize if i do offend anyone here by stating my side on the matter and my earlier posts. I guess my mouth or in this case my writing got carried away. But i still take my stand in my opinion and statements ive written just please disregard the uncalled for or unnecessary things i may have said. Thanks for understanding.

bigbanggoo

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2017, 11:42:29 am »
There's no need for me to prove anything because based on your own definition of EJK, the current war on drugs is EJK by itself. Unless you will change your statement again that is. 
Your description
Because 1 as CHR and you agreed that they should be arrested and 2. Dahil hindi na sila makakapagpaliwanag kung kasama nga talaga sila or nahatak lang ng grupo na magalsa.
As you have noted there are a lot of incidents last year na sinasabi nang pulis na nanlaban yung napatay while witnesses say otherwise. But still they are supported by the government so by your own definition those are EJKs. So either you support EJK but are just anticorry, or you don't support EJK and you're just a Dutertard follower.


And just to be clear again, I do not care whether it's EJK or not since I personally believe na as long as true criminals are killed kahit legit operation pa yan o salvage ok lang. I'm also not pro Cory cause I think she and her son were incompetents who started the decline of this country a few decades ago.  You can try to check all my anti duterte posts and you will see that my reason for disliking him lies mainly on totally different matters.

tigerwing

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2017, 12:37:52 pm »
@etong.

Some samples for you.

Articles regarding airstrikes against the Maute group last year. One from September another from November.

http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/581828/news/regions/7-maute-group-members-killed-in-military-bombardment-army-commander

http://www.rappler.com/nation/153709-military-maute-lanao-air-strikes

This one from March 2015 against the BIFF

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/679005/army-launches-2-hour-air-strike-vs-biff-in-maguindanao-troops-claim-killing-8-more-rebels

Here is a news clip from GMA News during the Zamboanga Siege. Footage shows PAF aircrafts in action.

https://youtu.be/bGp2lNRKY00

etong

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2017, 05:47:41 pm »
There's no need for me to prove anything because based on your own definition of EJK, the current war on drugs is EJK by itself. Unless you will change your statement again that is. 
Your descriptionAs you have noted there are a lot of incidents last year na sinasabi nang pulis na nanlaban yung napatay while witnesses say otherwise. But still they are supported by the government so by your own definition those are EJKs. So either you support EJK but are just anticorry, or you don't support EJK and you're just a Dutertard follower.


And just to be clear again, I do not care whether it's EJK or not since I personally believe na as long as true criminals are killed kahit legit operation pa yan o salvage ok lang. I'm also not pro Cory cause I think she and her son were incompetents who started the decline of this country a few decades ago.  You can try to check all my anti duterte posts and you will see that my reason for disliking him lies mainly on totally different matters.

Bro, i specifically said for the record, if duterte is the one in this issue i would be against it. Sorry for replying again but thats just wrong for thinking im a blind follower... im pro duterte on some of his acts sure, but i dislike how he runs his mouth for one reason... he is tactless most of the time, but still the results he is making is mostly positive.

How is "nanlaban" and got killed for it considered ejk? Its not. You always have the premise that the "nanlaban" clause is just an excuse to kill outright so its still ejk for you no matter what. If you firmly believe every kill during the operations is ejk then we are just going in circles...

The govt is ok with deaths that are reasonable not the one with ejk incidents. Dont mix them up.

@etong.

Some samples for you.

Articles regarding airstrikes against the Maute group last year. One from September another from November.

http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/581828/news/regions/7-maute-group-members-killed-in-military-bombardment-army-commander

http://www.rappler.com/nation/153709-military-maute-lanao-air-strikes

This one from March 2015 against the BIFF

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/679005/army-launches-2-hour-air-strike-vs-biff-in-maguindanao-troops-claim-killing-8-more-rebels

Here is a news clip from GMA News during the Zamboanga Siege. Footage shows PAF aircrafts in action.

https://youtu.be/bGp2lNRKY00


Thanks for this. Please take a look at this too.

http://asianjournal.com/news/at-least-84-dead-in-syria-from-us-led-airstrikes/

I understand why they have to airstrike but see the result. Even if the intention was good there are bound to have collateral damages beyond their control, so forgive me for thinking that doing airstrikes are bad in general.

Im glad no report of civilian casualties from your sources.


bigbanggoo

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2017, 08:56:51 am »

How is "nanlaban" and got killed for it considered ejk? Its not. You always have the premise that the "nanlaban" clause is just an excuse to kill outright so its still ejk for you no matter what. If you firmly believe every kill during the operations is ejk then we are just going in circles...


No one said all kills are ejk. Me and some other people in here already pointed out the circumstances that your so called killings isn't justified but you just decide to ignore it for some reason. Selective argument much? Sure most of them are legit operations but what about those that aren't? The problem is that Duterte  has an umbrella protection to all killings which by your own definition makes it EJK.  It is because of his policy and procedure that this alleged EJKs are being perpetrated so that makes him responsible. You cannot change your description of EJK and use it to support Duterte then change it again to to feint morality just to diss former administrations.

indemnified

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2017, 09:29:07 am »
Duterte orders to kill them IF they fight back nothing more nothing less. pls watch all his speeches and show me one proof of him saying KILL THEM without an IF clause.
I support dutertes war on drugs but please prove to me there are ejks that he has sponsored and i will concede to you as well that i have double standards.

If you know of any addicts, go ahead and kill them yourself as getting their parents to do it would be too painful.

Pagka bumunot, patayin mo. Pag hindi bumunot, patayin mo rin putang ina para matapos na. Eh kaysa mawala pa ‘yung baril. Ako na ang bahala sa inyo

Duterte said he will direct policemen and the military to not be deterred in killing "all" criminals because it is his "personal order."

Sir Tigerwing's right, you're all over the place. You're so hell-bent on arguing against other people's views that you're starting to contradict yourself. Just look at your stand with regards to legit police operations and EJKs compared to airstrikes. At one point you even claimed that collateral damages are a "non-issue".
ALSO, I was referring the NON ISSUE to which police operations usually comes with collateral damages and possible deaths before, not EJK. Dont mix them up.
When it comes to EJKs you readily dismiss them as being "isolated incidents" yet you cherry-pick events to try and justify how airstrikes are "bad in general". To use one of your quotes against you:
Again you are referring to ISOLATED INCIDENTS. Ilang balita ba ang narinig mo na ganyan ang outcome to continue bringing that up? Bilang lang yan
Just look at the links Sir tigerwing provided. I'll let you have a wild guess how many civilian casualties those airstrikes caused. ;)

Another one.
That is already accepted response why else would police even carry guns? just to disable really? Good luck to the police targetting their limbs while they are being targetted to the head or heart by the criminals.
And yes its possible to arrest them even in that scenario, unlikely but possible and atleast they still have that option. Pag nagkaubusan na ng bala ano na patayin parin? Unli ammo ba ang hawak ng mga rebelde sa confined location nila? You come on...
Unli ammo ho ba yung mga addict/pushers that you apparently can't show the same leniency towards them?

If only your logic's as flexible as your morals.

And mind you, the last time the police tried to serve a warrant for the arrest of a member of an armed group, it lead to the death of 44 SAF troopers. But at least we didn't resort to using airstrikes 'cause you know, they are bad in general.


And just to be clear again, I do not care whether it's EJK or not since I personally believe na as long as true criminals are killed kahit legit operation pa yan o salvage ok lang.

Honest question though, without due process, how would you know someone's a "true criminal"? 
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bigbanggoo

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2017, 10:56:18 am »
Due process: nangholdap sa jeep, nahuli, nakapagpyansa. nangholdap ulit repeat etc.
No due process: nangholdap sa jeep, nahuli, sinalvage.

Merong mga obvious na kriminal naman na di na need nang due process. Of course I agree na killing them is extreme so that's probably just me.

etong

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2017, 02:10:28 pm »
No one said all kills are ejk. Me and some other people in here already pointed out the circumstances that your so called killings isn't justified but you just decide to ignore it for some reason. Selective argument much? Sure most of them are legit operations but what about those that aren't? The problem is that Duterte  has an umbrella protection to all killings which by your own definition makes it EJK.  It is because of his policy and procedure that this alleged EJKs are being perpetrated so that makes him responsible. You cannot change your description of EJK and use it to support Duterte then change it again to to feint morality just to diss former administrations.

How is killing those na lumaban not justified? I believe self defense and self preservation is justifiable mali ba ako for thinking that?

No need to be a smartass sir. If i miss a question or point just reiterate. Im not selecting arguments if i did i would already have ignored you...

Let me quote you.

"Sure most of them are legit operations..."
Exactly, why would you consider them ejks then? Youd argue planted/setup pag namatay? Id concede that its possible. Thats where CHR comes in as others point out. They investigate these cases. If there proven  positive for doing that then it is ejk and id resent that. But after all that we still ended up with acceptable numbers atleast for me and not the exaggerated numbers de lima and trillanes are implying.

20k arrested(alive)
2k deaths

So just judging by the ratio. What conclusion can you make?
Heres mine
The president so called order to kill or ejk sponsored is fictional. It is more likely that the 2k fought back if 20k are alive. Now If it was true the numbers should be reversed like...

20k deaths
2k arrested

Rough estimate on last years senate hearings but its around that more or less not sure now but confident that the gap is still huge else they would be still bringing this up.

"...but what about those who arent?"
EJK. non legitimate operations are considered rogue actions possibly by the bad cops and what i considered isolated cases as well. So if its not their mandate and point of order why would you still think that its duterte who sponsored those?

On topic: Id just reiterate these; that i think the CIA news is true. I dont dislike cory or her admin. I think requesting airstrikes is bad in general. So if duterte is in the same position i would be opposed to the idea.










etong

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2017, 03:57:06 pm »
If you know of any addicts, go ahead and kill them yourself as getting their parents to do it would be too painful.

Pagka bumunot, patayin mo. Pag hindi bumunot, patayin mo rin putang ina para matapos na. Eh kaysa mawala pa ‘yung baril. Ako na ang bahala sa inyo

Duterte said he will direct policemen and the military to not be deterred in killing "all" criminals because it is his "personal order."

Sir Tigerwing's right, you're all over the place. You're so hell-bent on arguing against other people's views that you're starting to contradict yourself. Just look at your stand with regards to legit police operations and EJKs compared to airstrikes. At one point you even claimed that collateral damages are a "non-issue". When it comes to EJKs you readily dismiss them as being "isolated incidents" yet you cherry-pick events to try and justify how airstrikes are "bad in general". To use one of your quotes against you:Just look at the links Sir tigerwing provided. I'll let you have a wild guess how many civilian casualties those airstrikes caused. ;)

Another one.Unli ammo ho ba yung mga addict/pushers that you apparently can't show the same leniency towards them?

If only your logic's as flexible as your morals.

And mind you, the last time the police tried to serve a warrant for the arrest of a member of an armed group, it lead to the death of 44 SAF troopers. But at least we didn't resort to using airstrikes 'cause you know, they are bad in general.


Honest question though, without due process, how would you know someone's a "true criminal"?

1. Regarding your links - Oh thats cute so did you watch the actual video of it or you just based it on the title? Did it contain the full transcript or the statements are just "cherry picked" too? I suggest watch dont read best evidence yun... naloko nako ng mga misleading articles even from mainstream media.

2. Airstrike and cherry picking kuno - I chose that link because it shows the danger of airstrike and it was recent. Why dismiss it? Sabagay hindi naman mga pilipino namatay no?
So all is good yeah?

3. Readily dismiss as ISOLATED EVENT - It IS an isolated event. Please tell me ilan pang ganyang insidente ang nangyari? Hindi naman po ganun kadami - 2? 3? 4? Below 10? If ganyan lang kakonti how is that not considered isolated? Please dont call it an excuse, its reality. There are good cops and there are bad cops. <-

do you disagree with this to warrant na hindi nga isolated cases ang mga ito? I dont readily dismiss it its just logical that is. Sa konti ng ganyang insidente logical ba na ganyan ang mandato ng buong kapulisan? Mas madali paniwalaan na gago lang talaga yung mga involved.

4. Misquote ka - Just look at the links Sir tigerwing provided. I'll let you have a wild guess how many civilian casualties those airstrikes caused.

Hindi airstrike ang sinasabi ko dito kung di yun overkill na pinatay being shot many times.

4. Your take in doing operations

If only your logic's as flexible as your morals.

And mind you, the last time the police tried to serve a warrant for the arrest of a member of an armed group, it lead to the death of 44 SAF troopers. But at least we didn't resort to using airstrikes 'cause you know, they are bad in general."

- The difference is most cases close quarters and resident populated ang kaso with pushers. So best course of action is pasukin agad to avoid possible encounter outside wherein bystanders are in danger. Is that hard to understand? In a forest or mountain wider ang scope nila. If they use tactics theyd just surround their target and ff shooting range and let them exhaust ammunition. Id use your SAF example.  SAF ran out of bullets correct?  in which case The armed rebels could just as easily captured them for hostages but opted to kill. If the roles were reversed the SAF would have been successful if they were ready. But due to lack of coordination it failed for lack of planning.

Sorry may namiss bako? Baka masumbatan uli ako ng namimili ng sasagutin.

indemnified

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2017, 08:10:34 pm »
Due process: nangholdap sa jeep, nahuli, nakapagpyansa. nangholdap ulit repeat etc.
No due process: nangholdap sa jeep, nahuli, sinalvage.

Merong mga obvious na kriminal naman na di na need nang due process. Of course I agree na killing them is extreme so that's probably just me.

1. Due process: nangholdap sa jeep, nahuli, nakapagpyansa. nangholdap ulit repeat etc.
No due process: nangholdap sa jeep, nahuli, mistaken identity, mali ang sinalvage.

See. Two can play that game. =p

2. Your argument doesn't even make sense. How can someone be desperate enough for cash he has to rob a jeepney, yet have enough money to pay for bail, only to do it again.

3. While I agree that there are certain crimes that deserve the harshest penalties, due process should still exist to benefit the innocent. Obviously, there'd be instances wherein someone can skirt our laws but that's more reason to strengthen our laws and not circumvent it.



@etong
1. LOL! You mean to say you can't fact-check yourself?! Haha! You asked for a rebuttal, I gave you a rebuttal. It never was and never will be my intention to try and convince you. You think they're misleading? Then by all means refute it! The internet's at your disposal. Otherwise I'd say they're accurate.

2. Rhetorical question: A couple of days ago, a dog in Cebu bit 20 people. Would you say that dogs are bad in general? That people should be barred from owning dogs? I asked that because it shows the danger of owning dogs and it was recent. Would you dismiss it? Sabagay hindi naman ikaw nakagat no? -Sounds stupid diba?  ::lmao

3. & 4. Wooosh! Completely missed the point. Haha! Are you really this dense? Haha! Tagalugin ko nalang para maintindihan mo. Ayon sa'yo "isolated incidents" sila kasi iilang balita lang ang naririnig mo na ganyan ang outcome. Tama? Pero, nung sinubukan mong patotohanan yuung pahayag mo na "bad in general" ang mga airstrikes, ginamit mong halimbawa eh yung pinakamalalang insidente na nangyari 6 na buwan na ang nakalipas. Doon pumasok yung cherry-picking mo. Kasi araw-araw nagsasagawa nang airstrike ang Amerika pero pinili mo yung araw na pinakamarami yung nadamay na sibilyan. Kuha mo na? Ngayon, ako naman nagbigay nang mga halimbawa. Sabi ko tignan mo yung mga binigay na halimbawa ni Ginoong tigerwing. Kung masama talaga ang mga airstrikes, bakit walang namatay na sibilyan sa Zamboanga Siege? Nailigtas pa nila lahat nang mga bihag. Ganun din sa Maute Group. Gumamit din sila nang airstrikes pero bakit walang nadamay na mga sibilyan?

Yamang nandito narin lang naman tayo, eto ang problema ko sa'yo. Pagdating sa mga pulis nakatuon ang atensyon mo sa mga tingin mong magagandang nagagawa nila at pinapasawalang bahala mo yung mga pangit  na bagay dahil ayon sa'yo eh madalang lang silang mangyari. Pero pagdating sa ibang bagay kagaya nang mga airstrikes nakatuon lang ang atensyon mo sa mga masasamang naidudulot nila at hindi mo kinokonsidera ang mas madaming bentahe na ibinibigay nila. Ipokrito diba?

- The difference is most cases close quarters and resident populated ang kaso with pushers. So best course of action is pasukin agad to avoid possible encounter outside wherein bystanders are in danger. Is that hard to understand? In a forest or mountain wider ang scope nila. If they use tactics theyd just surround their target and ff shooting range and let them exhaust ammunition. Id use your SAF example.  SAF ran out of bullets correct?  in which case The armed rebels could just as easily captured them for hostages but opted to kill. If the roles were reversed the SAF would have been successful if they were ready. But due to lack of coordination it failed for lack of planning.

Wooosh! Again, you're missing the point. Hina-highlight ko yung contradiction mo and apparent flexibility nang morals mo. Pagdating sa mga addict/pushers hindi na bale kung mapatay sila or mahuli, pinaka-importante na maprotektahan ng mga pulis ang mga buhay nila. Tama? Pero pagdating sa mga rebelde okay lang sa'yo na pinapaputukan mga tropa natin dahil hindi naman unli yung mga bala nang mga rebelde. Ayan o inulit mo pa nga "let them exhaust ammunition". Para lang masabi mo na hindi sila kailangang gamitan ng airstrikes diba? Kuha mo?
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etong

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2017, 11:28:20 pm »

@etong
1. LOL! You mean to say you can't fact-check yourself?! Haha! You asked for a rebuttal, I gave you a rebuttal. It never was and never will be my intention to try and convince you. You think they're misleading? Then by all means refute it! The internet's at your disposal. Otherwise I'd say they're accurate.

-I can sure but id have to search hour long videos and i have no time for that now. Just think about this for now. 1hr more or less ang videos mostly speeches ni duterte. Naniniwala ka in that 1hr yung title na ang pinaka essence ng messages nya? Or just a way to make people click on their news. I never refuted he said those but there is more to it and if you are basing your judgment on those few clearly chosen statements  e talagang magiiba ang perception mo thats why im asking you to watch videos of him actually talking rather than reading a few notes and clips from the article.

2. Rhetorical question: A couple of days ago, a dog in Cebu bit 20 people. Would you say that dogs are bad in general? That people should be barred from owning dogs? I asked that because it shows the danger of owning dogs and it was recent. Would you dismiss it? Sabagay hindi naman ikaw nakagat no? -Sounds stupid diba?  ::lmao

-ill respond anyway because you think you are giving a smart comparison but really not. And yes it sounds stupid... on your part.

You cant compare something with a mind of its own to an action.  Come on. If you are trying to act smart do it right. Seriously? Kinocompare mo ang hayop sa airstrike? Airstrike that is meant to kill and a dog? Lol

3. & 4. Wooosh! Completely missed the point. Haha! Are you really this dense? Haha! Tagalugin ko nalang para maintindihan mo. Ayon sa'yo "isolated incidents" sila kasi iilang balita lang ang naririnig mo na ganyan ang outcome. Tama? Pero, nung sinubukan mong patotohanan yuung pahayag mo na "bad in general" ang mga airstrikes, ginamit mong halimbawa eh yung pinakamalalang insidente na nangyari 6 na buwan na ang nakalipas. Doon pumasok yung cherry-picking mo. Kasi araw-araw nagsasagawa nang airstrike ang Amerika pero pinili mo yung araw na pinakamarami yung nadamay na sibilyan. Kuha mo na? Ngayon, ako naman nagbigay nang mga halimbawa. Sabi ko tignan mo yung mga binigay na halimbawa ni Ginoong tigerwing. Kung masama talaga ang mga airstrikes, bakit walang namatay na sibilyan sa Zamboanga Siege? Nailigtas pa nila lahat nang mga bihag. Ganun din sa Maute Group. Gumamit din sila nang airstrikes pero bakit walang nadamay na mga sibilyan?

-Well i did acknowledge tigerwings links. I never refuted that. But as i have shown. There are cases that even if it was well planned the are still factors that you can never avoid. Again thats what im pointing out that there could be bad consequences on using it. Mali ba? Sige dagdagan kona lang next time yun examples ko. Gusto mo ata kasi pantayan ko yung mga sinubmit ni tiger... pasesnya na ha busy din ako ngayon.

-Ankulet lang e... Well duh! alangan naman ibigay kong example yung walang nadamay e ang pinopoint out ko e may instances na meron. Baliw kaba?

Yamang nandito narin lang naman tayo, eto ang problema ko sa'yo. Pagdating sa mga pulis nakatuon ang atensyon mo sa mga tingin mong magagandang nagagawa nila at pinapasawalang bahala mo yung mga pangit  na bagay dahil ayon sa'yo eh madalang lang silang mangyari. Pero pagdating sa ibang bagay kagaya nang mga airstrikes nakatuon lang ang atensyon mo sa mga masasamang naidudulot nila at hindi mo kinokonsidera ang mas madaming bentahe na ibinibigay nila. Ipokrito diba?

-i refused to acknowledge yung mga pangit? Bulag kaba? I acknowledged na meron masasamang pulis and there is indeed an ejk but to connect it all to the admin is just wrong when you see the evidences and the numbers. Paulit ulit nalang ako ah.

-again i acknowledged the links of sir tigerwing, ano masama kung pakita ko rin na may masaman epekto din ng paggamit? Thats my view on it. He showed his view i showed mine. Its all good now on that part. Ano pa problema mo ngayon? As far as im concerned we agree to disagree on that.

Wooosh! Again, you're missing the point. Hina-highlight ko yung contradiction mo and apparent flexibility nang morals mo. Pagdating sa mga addict/pushers hindi na bale kung mapatay sila or mahuli, pinaka-importante na maprotektahan ng mga pulis ang mga buhay nila. Tama? Pero pagdating sa mga rebelde okay lang sa'yo na pinapaputukan mga tropa natin dahil hindi naman unli yung mga bala nang mga rebelde. Ayan o inulit mo pa nga "let them exhaust ammunition". Para lang masabi mo na hindi sila kailangang gamitan ng airstrikes diba? Kuha mo?

-since when did i say ok lang na mapatay sila? I said it was justifiable because its self preservation and self defense. And its common and legal response  already. Ano contradiction pinagsasabi mo?

-I never said it was ok too. I said its an option. And yung  scenario lang ang binigay kong example of what possible thing to do other than airstrike just rebutting that airstrike is not the only option from that angle. Malinaw na?


bigbanggoo

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2017, 04:18:02 am »

2. Your argument doesn't even make sense. How can someone be desperate enough for cash he has to rob a jeepney, yet have enough money to pay for bail, only to do it again.


IF you want to be pedantic about it, then change holdap to carnap/kidnap/rape/murder/drugs and any other crime. It was just an example.

bigbanggoo

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2017, 04:31:42 am »
How is killing those na lumaban not justified? I believe self defense and self preservation is justifiable mali ba ako for thinking that?

I'm not sure if you have comprehension issues or just purposely ignore the facts that other say to force your twisted reverence of Dutertard. Kung ayaw mong maniwala dun sa mga sinabi namin, go and backread news reports last year. Madami dun sa sinasabi mong "nanlaban" are just what reports of the police state but witnesses say otherwise. Kung ayaw mo naman sa smallfries then look at the 2 biggest issues.

1. Yung kinidnap nang mga pulis sa may southern tagalog then natagpuan na lang na patay. Buti nakita sa CCTV
2. Espinossa. Nanlaban? sa loob nang jail sail after nyang sumuko at himingi nang WP? You must be daft if you seriously believe the official police repot even law experts agree the "killers" didn't follow the actual process. Pati nga si Bato sinibak yung head nung operation e. But guess what? Your god duterte overturned him and stopped investigations about the matter. If that isn't white washing I don't know what is.




20k arrested(alive)
2k deaths

So just judging by the ratio. What conclusion can you make?

We are not discussing numbers or ratios here. Whether it's 1 death or a million death it does not change the fact that according to your definition, it is an EJK. But of course you will probably find another way to change your description of EJK and taylor it to Duterte's standards right?




EJK. non legitimate operations are considered rogue actions possibly by the bad cops and what i considered isolated cases as well. So if its not their mandate and point of order why would you still think that its duterte who sponsored those?

Paulit ulit na naming sinabi sa mga threads dito that it is Duterte's policy that enables corrupt cops to act. Sa tingin mo ba magagawa nila yan kung walang blanket protection from Duterte?    Because of that order they can act on their own interests under the cover of the anti drug campaing. How hard it is to get that?

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Re: CIA documents reveals that Cory Aquino requested an airstrike from U.S.
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2017, 07:43:53 am »
Lumayo na ng lumayo sa topic. Again this is not about EJK, Duterte or his war on drugs. This is about Cory's request for airstrike..

Just to conclude:

Airstrikes in general are acceptable. This is proven by the fact that it is being done for decades already in this country, is written on newspapers and shown in national TV, with little to no public resentment.. While its true that airstrikes can lead to horrific consequenses, atleast in this country collateral damages or civillian casualties are kept to a minimum. Death of the inocent if there are such can therefore be considered an ISOLATED EVENT. ::laffman

However, for reasons that cant be explained, apparently its not acceptable if it was Cory Aquino who asked for it.  ::laffman ::laffman
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 07:49:45 am by tigerwing »