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Author Topic: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft  (Read 14684 times)

A7x

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DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« on: October 18, 2015, 12:12:30 am »


MANILA, (PNA) -- In a bid to give the Philippine Air Force (PAF) more offensive capabilities, the Department of National Defense (DND) has open the bidding for six close air support (CAS) aircraft.

The project has a budget of P4,968,000,000 which will be sourced from the Revised Armed Forces of the Philippines Modernization Program.

CAS refers to capability to provide air support to infantry and naval units in contact with the enemy.

The above-mentioned aircraft is the projected replacement of the PAF's existing Rockwell OV-10 "Bronco" attack planes.

DND undersecretary Fernando Manalo said that the contract includes integrated logistic support system.

Winning bidders must be able to deliver the aircraft within 540 calendar days from contract effectivity.

Participants in the DND's CAS project must have completed a similar program within the last 10 years.

Manalo added that the CAS aircraft must be used by the countries offering and manufacturing them.

qtip

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2015, 01:42:14 am »
Im thinking of A-10s ::uhaw

kenji_kulet

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2015, 04:19:05 am »
Im thinking of A-10s ::uhaw

 laffman:: same here , muntik na mawala ang A10 sa arsenal ng US dahil gusto na ito palitan ng USAF pero na decline ang request at patuloy lang na pinondohan ng government

dahil super effective naman talaga ng A10 Warthog sa CAS

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrtttttttttttttttttttttttttttt!!!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvIJvPj_pjE[/youtube]

A7x

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2015, 07:36:23 am »
Mahal ang maintenance ng A-10 Warthogs kaya gusto palitan ng US pero I hope e consider nila to BADASS kasi to at tested and proven na sa mga gyera sa middle east..Yun nga lang segunda mano na pag ito binili ng DND..

templar

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2015, 10:05:04 am »
I doubt it if a-10 gusto ng afp, mukha kasing hindi bagay ung firepower nya with the current internal threats that we have,milf, biff, asg and npa.

Maybe they are looking for a replacement for the ov-10, super tucano perhaps?

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naruto789544

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2015, 10:30:14 am »
super tucano looks good... maintenance wise how does it compare with the a10's...

templar

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2015, 01:19:43 pm »
super tucano looks good... maintenance wise how does it compare with the a10's...

Mas low maintenance yung tucano, propeller driven yung tucano while the a10 has 2 jet engines hence higher maintenanve cost

On armaments naman, cost will benefit the tucano, it only needs mk82 bombs and .50 cal rounds, very very effective against low threat targets,

"Improvise, Adapt, Overcome" --- Gunnery Sgt. Tom "Gunny" Highway

"We herd sheep, we drive cattle, we lead people. Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way" --- Lt. Gen. George Patton

templar

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2015, 01:30:27 pm »
super tucano looks good... maintenance wise how does it compare with the a10's...

Mas low maintenance yung tucano, propeller driven yung tucano while the a10 has 2 jet engines hence higher maintenanve cost

On armaments naman, cost will benefit the tucano, it only needs mk82 bombs and .50 cal rounds, very very effective against low threat targets,

"Improvise, Adapt, Overcome" --- Gunnery Sgt. Tom "Gunny" Highway

"We herd sheep, we drive cattle, we lead people. Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way" --- Lt. Gen. George Patton

wildgang_10

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2015, 01:43:18 pm »
super tucano looks good... maintenance wise how does it compare with the a10's...


Mas mahal pa rin ang A-10

pero kung hinde budget and pag uusapan A-10 pa rin anytime!!

maganda pang CAS ang A10 dahil subsonic sya one example yung turning radius nya and loiter time on air (certain amount of time sa isang maliit na region.)

just like OV-10 bomber plane manueverability pero mas lethal

sabi nga nila it is capable of massive ordinance.


pero since on a budget ang country natin mataas ang probability ng TUCANO and it can hold it s own.. and mas mura ang maintenance talaga..


kenji_kulet

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2015, 06:20:43 pm »
on the other side our military can use a Bell AH-1 SuperCobra  ;D

since we dont have enough run ways

it also has a Flir-cam , 20MM M197 it an also put in Hydra 70 , TOW Missle , Hellfire and a sidewinder

naruto789544

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2015, 10:27:49 am »
on the other side our military can use a Bell AH-1 SuperCobra  ;D

since we dont have enough run ways

it also has a Flir-cam , 20MM M197 it an also put in Hydra 70 , TOW Missle , Hellfire and a sidewinder

agree with this... we really need close air support for the insurgency drive.... maybe a combination of the super tucano and some a-10's can be made... the st for light requirements and the a-10's for massive ones light carpet bombing of suspected terrorist lairs...

tigerwing

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2015, 07:44:32 pm »
If im not mistaken the operational cost of a super cobra is actually higher than a super tucano.
And lets all forget about the A-10 shall we?  Yes, its bad ass but the only reason to get an A-10 is if we need that badass  30mm autocannon. We dont. We have no use for it. Minus the gun, everything the A10 can do can be done by lighter and cheaper aircraft like the super tucano.

kenji_kulet

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2015, 02:52:26 am »
If im not mistaken the operational cost of a super cobra is actually higher than a super tucano.
And lets all forget about the A-10 shall we?  Yes, its bad ass but the only reason to get an A-10 is if we need that badass  30mm autocannon. We dont. We have no use for it. Minus the gun, everything the A10 can do can be done by lighter and cheaper aircraft like the super tucano.

well it's true , but i still considering having the Cobras or Snake as CAS because of their ability to do VTOL on , considering this is a big time deduction

plus we can take out the missiles and use only the gatling cannon and flir cam just to save some money

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2015, 05:59:34 pm »
Let us consider AV-8B Harrier Jet? It can land any where and capable of air to air defense.  A very nice Close Air Support for the Marines " First to Fight "   Air Force can use this too.    toast:: ;D ;D 

tigerwing

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2015, 01:29:43 am »
Harriers may even be more problematic. Remember Thailand? The Harriers are so difficult to maintain the Thai's retired their entire fleet in 2006 and never replace them. That's Less than 10 years of service in the RTN. Up to now their one aircraft carrier still has no fix-wing air asset.

wildgang_10

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2015, 01:48:39 am »
To add info harriers are difficult to fly even experienced pilots make mistakes..

what even more kung mga pilots natin na walang experience sa ganito small mistakes could end up in a crash sayang yung buhay the plane and money.

my opinion ideal sa atin yung Tucano and or AH-1 super Cobra for now to fight local insurgents..

naruto789544

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2015, 01:47:32 pm »
choppers is an advantage for close support... don't need big areas for it to be deployed... easier to maintain also... but we also have to add some heavy support and by the looks of it, only the tucano is feasible for the time being...

MEDIA TECH

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2015, 10:36:54 am »


Ok Lets to do this...  If lets say AV-8B Harrier II vs. Tuscano? Or AV-8B Harrier II vs. AH-1 Super Cobra. Whose going to win? 

Now against a flock of ant-aircraft guns or surface to air missiles whose going to survive? Tuscano? AH-1 Cobra? Or the Battle tested Harrier?

USMC commander Lieutenant General Earl B. Hailston said that the Harriers were able to provide 24-hour support for ground forces, and noted that "The airplane ... became the envy of pilots even from my background ... there's an awful lot of things on the Harrier that I've found the Hornet pilots asking me [for] ... We couldn't have asked for a better record".


Now the Thailand's Harrier issue? 
Thailand bought seven first-generation AV-8S and two tandem-seat TAV-8S Matador versions of the Harrier from the Spanish navy in 1986, but never allocated enough money for spare parts, repair and overhaul and only seven pilots were trained to fly them in the first two years. 

We are talking about the AV-8B Harrier II ... the Harrier "B"... not the "A".    ::laffman

And about that "Harriers are difficult to fly even experienced pilots make mistakes...", i don't think this is going to be an issue. The Phil Air Force can create a "Top Gun School". Why do you think the Israeli pilots bitten up any Arab pilots? We should stop thinking about "this one is difficult -this one is not ". It is not the quantity its the quality of training plus a good fighting aircraft will do the job!   

naruto789544

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2015, 10:42:54 am »
hmmm... cost wise... how much is the tucano, a10 and the harrier?

tigerwing

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2015, 12:07:18 pm »

Ok Lets to do this...  If lets say AV-8B Harrier II vs. Tuscano? Or AV-8B Harrier II vs. AH-1 Super Cobra. Whose going to win? 

Now against a flock of ant-aircraft guns or surface to air missiles whose going to survive? Tuscano? AH-1 Cobra? Or the Battle tested Harrier?

USMC commander Lieutenant General Earl B. Hailston said that the Harriers were able to provide 24-hour support for ground forces, and noted that "The airplane ... became the envy of pilots even from my background ... there's an awful lot of things on the Harrier that I've found the Hornet pilots asking me [for] ... We couldn't have asked for a better record".


Now the Thailand's Harrier issue? 
Thailand bought seven first-generation AV-8S and two tandem-seat TAV-8S Matador versions of the Harrier from the Spanish navy in 1986, but never allocated enough money for spare parts, repair and overhaul and only seven pilots were trained to fly them in the first two years. 

We are talking about the AV-8B Harrier II ... the Harrier "B"... not the "A".    ::laffman

And about that "Harriers are difficult to fly even experienced pilots make mistakes...", i don't think this is going to be an issue. The Phil Air Force can create a "Top Gun School". Why do you think the Israeli pilots bitten up any Arab pilots? We should stop thinking about "this one is difficult -this one is not ". It is not the quantity its the quality of training plus a good fighting aircraft will do the job!

Really, why the Harrier? The only thing special about the plane is its STOL/VTOL capability, do we really need that?

Why not helicopters? Like the Harriers they can pretty much operate without a runway if VTOL is a key feature. And lets not forget the reason behind this project shall we? The new aircrafts will replace our old OV-10 which is used for COIN operations. So the main mission would be against insurgents. Do the MILF, ASG, NPA and other local hooligans have SAMs and AAAs?

If you're going to argue that in case we come against a foe that can actually shoot an aircraft down, survivability in a high threat environment is important, then again why the harrier? If we are to spend so much money on acquisition of aircrafts and pilot training then why don't we just go with full pledge MRFs like the F-16 or Gripens? They're hell of a lot better than any Harrier in air-to-air and can do pretty much everything the Harrier can in air-to-ground. They are also meant to operate in a high threat environment, as such survivability is not a question.

Also, what do all Harrier operators have in common? AIRCRAFT CARRIERS! With the exception of the Royal Air Force, everyone else operates theirs on board a flat-top. That is where the Harrier make most sense. That is where its STOL/VTOL capability is most needed. Is the Philippines planing to acquire its first carrier anytime soon?

Finally, Why do you think Thailand ditch their Harriers? Sure they bought the old models but they pretty much have the money to buy the newer ones as replacement if they see fit. Not only that, they actually have a carrier to host it. Yet we don't see the Thai's flying harriers now do we? Why? If its so good of a plane why is it that in Asia only India has it? Even then, instead of buying more, India choose the Mig-29k for their new carrier. Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, even Japan and South Korea, all of them decided to pass. If these countries do not see the Harrier to be useful to them then why should the Philippines?     

kenji_kulet

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2015, 01:13:08 pm »

Ok Lets to do this...  If lets say AV-8B Harrier II vs. Tuscano? Or AV-8B Harrier II vs. AH-1 Super Cobra. Whose going to win? 

Now against a flock of ant-aircraft guns or surface to air missiles whose going to survive? Tuscano? AH-1 Cobra? Or the Battle tested Harrier?

USMC commander Lieutenant General Earl B. Hailston said that the Harriers were able to provide 24-hour support for ground forces, and noted that "The airplane ... became the envy of pilots even from my background ... there's an awful lot of things on the Harrier that I've found the Hornet pilots asking me [for] ... We couldn't have asked for a better record".


Now the Thailand's Harrier issue? 
Thailand bought seven first-generation AV-8S and two tandem-seat TAV-8S Matador versions of the Harrier from the Spanish navy in 1986, but never allocated enough money for spare parts, repair and overhaul and only seven pilots were trained to fly them in the first two years. 

We are talking about the AV-8B Harrier II ... the Harrier "B"... not the "A".    ::laffman

And about that "Harriers are difficult to fly even experienced pilots make mistakes...", i don't think this is going to be an issue. The Phil Air Force can create a "Top Gun School". Why do you think the Israeli pilots bitten up any Arab pilots? We should stop thinking about "this one is difficult -this one is not ". It is not the quantity its the quality of training plus a good fighting aircraft will do the job!

it's True the Harrier can provide 24 hours of CAS protection it's a flying armory

but! let's not forget that we dont have Planes that can re-fuel flying vehicles in mid-air , and Flying with jet fuel isn't that cheap

the Cobras are perfect for our Pilots , our Pilots are very well trained flying UH-1s  , since the Cobras are the evolve UH1s why not?

VTOL are the key since we dont have big runways all over our Island , plus the Cobras can land anywhere as long as it has the right space for take off and landing


wildgang_10

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2015, 02:32:25 pm »

Ok Lets to do this...  If lets say AV-8B Harrier II vs. Tuscano? Or AV-8B Harrier II vs. AH-1 Super Cobra. Whose going to win? 

Now against a flock of ant-aircraft guns or surface to air missiles whose going to survive? Tuscano? AH-1 Cobra? Or the Battle tested Harrier?

USMC commander Lieutenant General Earl B. Hailston said that the Harriers were able to provide 24-hour support for ground forces, and noted that "The airplane ... became the envy of pilots even from my background ... there's an awful lot of things on the Harrier that I've found the Hornet pilots asking me [for] ... We couldn't have asked for a better record".


Now the Thailand's Harrier issue? 
Thailand bought seven first-generation AV-8S and two tandem-seat TAV-8S Matador versions of the Harrier from the Spanish navy in 1986, but never allocated enough money for spare parts, repair and overhaul and only seven pilots were trained to fly them in the first two years. 

We are talking about the AV-8B Harrier II ... the Harrier "B"... not the "A".    ::laffman

And about that "Harriers are difficult to fly even experienced pilots make mistakes...", i don't think this is going to be an issue. The Phil Air Force can create a "Top Gun School". Why do you think the Israeli pilots bitten up any Arab pilots? We should stop thinking about "this one is difficult -this one is not ". It is not the quantity its the quality of training plus a good fighting aircraft will do the job!

talk is cheap!!

were talking here the reality

sa current situation ng country natin kasi ngayun lalo na limited funds mas maganda yung sigurado ka sa bibilin mo and magagamit mo ng matagal...

mag acquire tayo ng mga used harriers na balak ng palitan ng mga western countries..

im working in aviation believe me sakit ng ulo ang mga lumang eroplano ang daming inspection / maintenace required to keep the aircraft airworthy and flyable pag nag kataon mas malaki pa yung ground time nung aircraft sa hangar instead of flying!

kadalasan hinde economical mag maintain ng mga lumang eroplano sa cost ng magagastos mo.

lalo na mga military jets subjected iyan to more fatigue stress than civilian aircrafts.

walang pinag kaiba yan sa bumili ka ng lumang kotse na ginawang taxi madaming mag lalabasan na sira..


regarding IAF yes magaling talaga yung mga fighter pilots nila

 pero FYI batak po sila sa gyera they have plenty of air combat experience already.

and the US & British including France who once supported them!

 important is we have the equipment, reliable Aircrafts, training for the crew, and Flying time to make them proficient

pero ang pinaka importante isdapat budget talaga.


"It is not the quantity its the quality of training plus a good fighting aircraft will do the job!"

well both are important

there are times na you have to consider na having good fighting aircraft and good a pilot is not enough lalo na kung kaunti lang  yung panlaban na gamit mo..


an enemy can overwhelm you by volume...







 

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2015, 10:04:16 pm »


***Why not helicopters? Like the Harriers they can pretty much operate without a runway if VTOL is a key feature. And lets not forget the reason behind this project shall we? The new aircrafts will replace our old OV-10 which is used for COIN operations. So the main mission would be against insurgents. Do the MILF Why not helicopters? Like the Harriers they can pretty much operate without a runway if VTOL is a key feature. And lets not forget the reason behind this project shall we? The new aircrafts will replace our old OV-10 which is used for COIN operations. So the main mission would be against insurgents. Do the MILF, ASG, NPA and other local hooligans have SAMs and AAAs? 

Can the Helicopters had the same "turn around" capability as the Harrier II? How fast do you think Helicopters can arrived in a battlefield? Its obvious Harrier II is a "jet". So its fast! 

You know what? This is really a good question- Do the MILF, ASG, NPA and other local hooligans have SAMs and AAAs?  Those you mentioned like MILF, ASG, and NPA was just simple armed groups but now look at them they are  wearing uniforms with insignias meaning they are visible "armies" capable of waging war and can handle any weapons, they even had their own "Strike Teams" well trained abroad. Its just a matter of time now, sooner or later they will have AAA guns and shoulder fired SAM. Most of this "armies" are now well finance secretly by some countries. Do you think they would not bring "heavy weapons" to defeat the Phil Government?   



***If you're going to argue that in case we come against a foe that can actually shoot an aircraft down, survivability in a high threat environment is important, then again why the harrier? If we are to spend so much money on acquisition of aircrafts and pilot training then why don't we just go with full pledge MRFs like the F-16 or Gripens? They're hell of a lot better than any Harrier in air-to-air and can do pretty much everything the Harrier can in air-to-ground. They are also meant to operate in a high threat environment, as such survivability is not a question.

You just missed the point of argruement, we are talking about close air support meaning ground attack aircrafts not full blown air warefare, F-16 or Gripen are not even a dedicated close air support.



***Also, what do all Harrier operators have in common? AIRCRAFT CARRIERS! With the exception of the Royal Air Force, everyone else operates theirs on board a flat-top. That is where the Harrier make most sense. That is where its STOL/VTOL capability is most needed. Is the Philippines planing to acquire its first carrier anytime soon?

Am sorry to tell you, your actually wrong thats why its STOL/VTOL so it can operate any ground even on top of the buildings. You can even use "power barges" as a flatform. I think you read so much modern warfare. Another why to operate Harrier II is by FOB ( Forward Operating Base) and even "Fire Base". This why the USMC love their Harrier II due to "flexibility" and 24 hours air support it can provide.   


***Finally, Why do you think Thailand ditch their Harriers? Sure they bought the old models but they pretty much have the money to buy the newer ones as replacement if they see fit. Not only that, they actually have a carrier to host it. Yet we don't see the Thai's flying harriers now do we? Why? If its so good of a plane why is it that in Asia only India has it? Even then, instead of buying more, India choose the Mig-29k for their new carrier. Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, even Japan and South Korea, all of them decided to pass. If these countries do not see the Harrier to be useful to them then why should the Philippines?   

Thailand ditch their Harrier due to "Economic Crisis" and shortage of pilots. Now the next question why India has it? At that time India was building "sea defense" and Harrier was the right aircraft. Next question is why India choose Mig-29k? 
Because India had a good Diplomatic standing with Russia, they are willing to give all the support the Indian Air Force needs. Secondly, The US can not allow the India to use the Harrier II against its friendly Pakistan nation. India and Pakistan had this "territorial dispute".  Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and Japan opted more on fighter - interceptor capable aircrafts, they don't have the use for ground attack aircraft. Korea opted due to the development of their own aircraft.

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2015, 11:21:28 pm »
AV-8B Harrier II that cost 24,000,000–30,000,000 USD (1996) VS AH-1 Cobra that cost 11,300,000 (1995) these are the unit alone

would you rather spend a lot of money training our pilots for their new toy? or gave them something very familiar that they almost use everyday?

tigerwing

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Re: DND opens bidding for six close-air support aircraft
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2015, 10:13:25 am »
@mediatech

So you think F-16s cant do CAS? Funny as they can carry every single weapon the harrier can. If we're going to spend milions and milions of dolars for a harrier, wouldnt it be better for us to just spend a little bit more and get full pledge MRFs? Their not only good for CAS but for full blown air warfare as well. Better bang for our buck.

If the only reason you want harriers is so that you can have them as close to the fight as possible then helicopters can do the same. Sure jets are faster in flight but helicopters are cheaper. You can have 2-3 attack helos for the price of one harrier. With more units you can fly more missions.

How do you think harrier users operate their harriers? Where do the spanish and the Italians deploy theirs? How about the thais and the indians? FROM AIRCRAFT CARIERRS. Yeah sure, the harriers can be used in the way that you intended. But the reality is that most operators use them as a crarrier borne strike aircraft.

If the thai's ditch the harriers becasue of "economic crisis" meaning they cant afford it and lack of pilots. What makes you think it will be easier for the Philippines? Mind you Thailand have more resources than us. And india? Its not just becasue they have good relationship with russia and not because the americans dont want them to have it, they already have it and they have other aircraft more threatening than the harrier. They choose the mig-29k over the harrier simply because its better than the harrier.

you think other countries have no need for ground attack capabilities? Im sorry but thats just so stupid. The real reason they dont have harriers is not because they have no need for ground attack. Its beacause they have aircrafts that can do everything the harrier can and more. Simply put they dont need the harrier.